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AFL season template

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I want to discuss the colours on the new Template:Infobox AFL season. I put forward for an all-blue colour scheme, replacing the top box (red, white text, blue border) with the same blue with white as the other boxes. Reasons are: consistency with AFL general branding which is blue with white trimmings and red/white/blue logo (seen on website brand and premiership flag colour); consistency with other project infoboxes such as player stats which are blue; in recognition of 1990s AFL logo which was mostly blue unlike today's mostly red logo and would have less argument for a red top box; and a little bit of disliking the inconsistent box colours between the top heading and the subsequent ones. Alternative to blue and white would be adopting the same colour scheme as Western Bulldogs of all blue (of the appropriate shade), white text, red border. Aspirex (talk) 05:18, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

How the template is now looks mighty similar to the logo, so I didn't quite understand the issue? --SuperJew (talk) 07:41, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The logo is not the full brand. The logo on a blue background is the predominant brand for the league. Aspirex (talk) 07:59, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hence why all of the headers and 'below' are blue with white text, and in the absence of a logo, 'above' is designed to match the logo. I don't understand the issue either, it really just sounds like you don't like the look/use of the red. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 10:23, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, I wouldn't have raised a discussion if I liked it. Aesthetically speaking, having the same colours for each heading would be preferable, and a lot more consistent with Wikipedia sports project norms. (I've gone looking – and I'm yet to find an infobox with more than one colour of heading in it, except where one of the neutral greys is used for a subheading). Aspirex (talk) 22:01, 15 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AFL finals series articles

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Hey guys – hope everyone's doing well. Now that we've reached the AFL finals, a new finals series article has been created, but I wanted to weigh in and get other people's thoughts on these. I remember this popping up either in an edit summary or perhaps even a thread on here around this time last year, but my stance at the time hasn't changed, and that's that most or all of these finals series articles are poorly sourced, written and formatted, and I don't think that they add that much beyond maybe a paragraph or so that could just be added to the prose of the relevant season and grand final articles, with the only sourced parts either copied from AFL finals series or AFL final eight system (when covering how the finals work), or adding little more than useless trivia. I think that if we were to keep these articles, they would require a serious going over, but have a look at last year's, for example – we can't accept something of this quality. Anyway, would love to get some input, that way if we get rid of them, we don't have to worry about putting time into updating another article, or if we keep them, we can do this one right. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 12:55, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be more than happy to get rid of them. I agree with everything you've said, these article are poor. It's just duplicated information, the unnecessary venues photocollage, and the "this is the xth time these teams have faced each other in a final" comments which have no encyclopedic value. Even if we worked hard at it, I don't think they serve much value being split. I'd happily redirect them all straight back to the season articles (no merging because there's nothing useful to merge).
And if we're in the mood for getting rid of low value spin-off articles, let's merge back all the post 2013 preseason articles similar to how this year's articles look. Aspirex (talk) 13:09, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just to expand further, I can't really imagine an article structure where the finals page would add great stand-alone value. If we wanted to treat finals with greater prominence, we could use full scorecards and one to two sentence game summaries, but that can all still fit in the main season article. And actually list the Gary Ayres Medallist. Aspirex (talk) 21:59, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree with all this, I wouldn't be opposed to stand-alone finals series pages if they had a lot more detail/value but evidently they do not and as you say, could definitely still be placed on the main AFL season page with full scorecards Totallynotarandomalt69 (talk) 22:24, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with all the above. And while we're at it, I expect that no matter what we say here, there Will be an article on the Grand Final, and it will include all sorts of useless trivia, such as who all the commentators are. That's not about the GF, but about a TV station's choices. HiLo48 (talk) 23:25, 25 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm wary of making calls based on how well articles tend to be written, rather than how well they could be written. There's usually enough material to merit separate articles on a season and its finals series – the question is more over whether this material is actually used. However, given a particular season article hasn't yet been expanded to its full potential, it makes sense not to have a separate article on its finals series until it is. – Teratix ₵ 01:37, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's a fair caution; and if I'm honest with myself, I'd agree that each finals series does meet GNG in its own right and would probably fail an AfD. But I lean on the side that even an enhanced version would fit organically inside the season article, and would be more comprehensible to the average reader in its season's context than as a standalone article. Aspirex (talk) 09:38, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding adding the scorecards to the season article, see 2023 AFL Women's season#Finals series for an example of how this would look. Not sure summaries would be neccesary, though – any further content on finals progression, stories, statistics, etc. could just go in the prose or (if applicable) game notes. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 16:30, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am seeing this discussion and want to put my input in it but would taking inspiration from other pages such as NBA playoffs or NBL finals work? On both pages you have exactly when each team qualified, updates to postseason appearances and also all the games played in the finals series as well as the ladder and ladder progression. There could also be a paragraph or two on what happened in the game if necessary. Flipstatic Energy (talk) 05:11, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've always thought the NBA or NHL playoffs serve as good examples of the 'finals/playoffs' articles, but also by comparison highlight why the AFL doesn't benefit the same – in particular, the fact that there are around 80–90 games in those playoff series compared with only nine in the AFL is why I feel the AFL finals are a lot more easily mergable with the main season article; and the fact that the NBA and NHL do genuinely put a lot of stock in segregating playoff statistics from regular season statistics, which the AFL does not, tells me there's not a lot of standalone content beyond game results which can be merged. Aspirex (talk) 06:54, 4 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I am also wondering maybe for finals we could include as a game note "this is the Xth time that team Y has played team Z following the 2023 Semi Final, 2022 Qualifying Final, 2021 Elimination Final, 2020 grand final and 2019 preliminary final" (fake games of course) Flipstatic Energy (talk) 01:42, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would strongly opposed it. To my mind, those comments are the weakest feature of the finals article as it stands; barely notable if at all, and they serve no lasting encyclopedic value. Aspirex (talk) 01:59, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Flipstatic Energy, I'm gonna give it to you straight: that is exactly the kind of unsourced, trivial and unencyclopaedic dribble that we're trying to get away from, and one of the main reasons I started this discussion. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 02:03, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
nvm I misread that as the only thing that is different is that fact. Flipstatic Energy (talk) 05:32, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AFLGameDetail vs AFLGameDetailed template

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(Note: I'm breaking this discussion about resolving an agreed format for Template:AFLGameDetailed vs Template:AFLGameDetail off from the above 'AFL finals series articles subsection, as it's turned into somewhat of a separate discussion) Aspirex (talk) 22:49, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not a fan of this new AFLGameDetail template compared with the old AFLGameDetailed template we've been using for many years. Seems superfluous and counter to the usual reporting of scores to list Q4-Q1-Q2-Q3-Q4 rather than Q1-Q2-Q3-Q4. I suggest we stick to the old template. Aspirex (talk) 23:58, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly disagree. Aside from the improvements to the formatting/coding (makes it easier to edit, and does away with less important information like injuries and reports to still keep it reasonably compact), it keeps the teams and final score on the same line so that the top line is formatted exactly the same way as AFLGame (keeps the formatting consistent rather than transition to team-Q1-Q2-Q3-Q4 – don't see the need to separate the bold elements) while still including a full score progression for completeness. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 02:36, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Putting the question to everyone as we should resolve this, since we really shouldn't have competing detailed game templates in the project. I do think we can (and should) agree not to include reports and injuries in this context, regardless of chosen template. Aspirex (talk) 04:15, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I created it to replace AFLGameDetailed, not to compete with it – gradually introducing it to the season articles (as a starting point) will take a while. Otherwise, if we can't have a "scorecard" template that improves on the existing template's flaws/is closer in formatting to AFLGame, then as far as I'm concerned, we get rid of it along with the finals series articles, stick to just AFLGame in the season articles like we have been and omit the template from grand final articles. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 04:37, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I understand that you created it to replace AFLGameDetailed. My point is that we should agree project-level which template (or combination thereof) to use now and get it into the existing AFLGameDetailed name (and subsequently PROD AFLGameDetail), rather than ending up with different templates and having them appear inconsistently across the project. When comparing the pair, my objections to the new template are: the inclusion of the final scores on the top line, since it creates a non-chronology above the Q1–Q3 scores and an unnecessary repetition; and the elimination of the option to include injuries and reports in a full-detailed scorecard – since these have been features of standard Australian rules football boxscores/scorecards for many years (I would just keep it as having the option to include those rows, but then developing the practice of using those options only in game articles, not season articles). Aspirex (talk) 22:47, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

AfD for VFL Women's seasons and more

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Interesting that an editor here has decided this was a good idea:

Rather than discussing here about improving these articles, especially about women's sport.

If this is the path chosen, there's a whole swathe of articles on Australian football that will soon to vanish into the ether due to this interpretation of WP:GNG. Storm machine (talk) 23:20, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If this "whole swathe of articles on Australian football" can't meet the reasonable standard of having a few independent sources that give their topics some decent coverage, then we'll never be able to meaningfully improve them and it's doubtful they're worth keeping. If a series of articles lack decent sources and you can't find any on your own search, it's perfectly fine to put them up for deletion. – Teratix ₵ 02:49, 8 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But they can be improved. A bulk AfD for every single season article for the VFL Women's, TAC Cup (etc.) and TAC Cup Girls (etc.) seems extremely destructive without at least first making some type of effort to improve any one of ~40 said articles. I am confused as to the willingness of some individuals here to wave the AfD or GNG wand like it is nothing. There is so much more that can be done in WP:AFL than deleting the comparatively small amount of information that we do have online. Gibbsyspin 10:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
But they can be improved. Well, that's the very point in question, isn't it? If there's no good sources out there, then there's no prospect of genuine improvement. wave the AfD or GNG wand like it is nothing. The GNG isn't a particularly demanding standard, really – there's an abundance of sources that cover past and present Australian football. If we can't find a couple of decent sources covering a particular topic, then how are we supposed to write a decent article on it? That's all GNG is. – Teratix ₵ 14:05, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Whether they're right or not, I would have at least discussed it first so as to be more collaborative than destructive and not put some people (evidently) off-side. As we've done with plenty of topics before, would have been nice to discuss potential improvements here as a project rather than via mass deletion discussions; given the amount of time/effort put into the VFLW season articles, for example (even contributing photos for the 2024 article), I'd be pretty pissed off too if I was Storm machine. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 11:34, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Proposed club shortcut template deletions or changes

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Template:WAFL Cla has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page.

as well as all other WAFL & WAFLW team shortcut templates. The-Pope (talk) 14:28, 9 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is it just me or is the entry not loading? Gibbsyspin 08:45, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You need to go to the Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 September 5 log. The link is to 9 September. Aspirex (talk) 08:56, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I corrected the link. --SuperJew (talk) 09:17, 10 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

For those interested, the discussion was relisted/continued at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 September 13#WAFL link templates. In addition (some of you, as the templates' creators, might have already been notified), Jonesey95 nominated the AFLW templates for deletion at Wikipedia:Templates for discussion/Log/2024 September 14#Template:AFLW WB and other AFLW link templates on the basis of merging to a single template, though there hasn't been a final decision/consensus reached at the WAFL and WAFLW discussions yet – Jonesey95 just said "merge if kept" and started doing it. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 15:00, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The single template solution proposed by Jonesy seems ok, but it then opens up the door to "why even have a template for every league, just have a single {{ARFClubShortCut}} template for all leagues". Whilst {{AFLW}} was available for creation & use for this task, a lot of {{AFL}}, {{WAFL}} etc are already in use for navboxes. Whatever the outcome will be, it will be a fair bit of work for someone to set up and switch over, and then we need to relearn what's worked fairly well for years. I guess that's less important to some people than the horror of having about a hundred entirely fit for purpose, but undocumented, individual templates. The-Pope (talk) 01:06, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's always blatantly obvious to me that the people who suggest and advocate these discussions are people who haven't and won't edit in the field they are talking about. Very sad tbh --SuperJew (talk) 01:41, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As much as the {{ARFClubShortCut}} idea sounds horrifying at first, perhaps we could investigate whether that kind of solution could work for us. It would be interesting to see a short code that works across the AFL/AFLW and the state-level competitions that is as editor friendly as the known codes. Storm machine (talk) 00:25, 16 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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