Talk:2024–25 UEFA Champions League league phase

Average coefficient of opponents

@S.A. Julio: The table of the draw results should only present who was drawn against whom. It shouldn't list the average coefficient of every team's opponents as if that is an integral part of the draw results.

The publication by ESPN which you cited is more of an explanation of the draw procedure than a straightforward report of the results. Also it only seems to contain a selected few of those values, rather than a full list. Their actual report of the (leading teams') draw results, on the other hand, contains no such values.

Such kind of data is indeed food for analysis and reactions, but ultimately every game begins at 0–0.

Same with Europa League and Conference League. --Theurgist (talk) 18:53, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

I think with the format change it might be of value to readers. While not an integral part of the draw results, I think it does have informative value and gauging the schedule of certain teams relative to others. S.A. Julio (talk) 21:26, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Rather than being "of value", this presents what borders on WP:SYNTHESIS and WP:CRYSTALBALL. Those averages are not a tiebreaking criterion for the ranking, and Wikipedia is not supposed to come up with evaluations or predictions; it can report evaluations and predictions, but that would have to be in a separate section and properly sourced. --Theurgist (talk) 22:11, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Attendance

@S.A. Julio: are you sure this primary source will have attendance displayed? The alternative source is already reporting it. Should we wait a little bit? Island92 (talk) 20:19, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

@Island92: Maybe we should switch, looking at Juventus-PSV you can see by the time stamp the report was updated hours after completion but still no attendance. We can see if things change later, but for now I went ahead and switched all the references to {{UEFA match attendance}}. S.A. Julio (talk) 21:25, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I noticed that. Thanks for the switch. Island92 (talk) 21:29, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

@S.A. Julio: data available now on the primary source. Let's put again it for all matches? Island92 (talk) 08:49, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

@Island92:  Done. The PDF is a better, reader-friendly source that should be preferred when available. S.A. Julio (talk) 09:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

I think so. If data is there, is a must to use PDF. Island92 (talk) 09:17, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Adding results or highlights matches played in Draw section

In the draw section, I think it might be useful if it indicated someway like highlighting the cells in the table or putting the results for matches that have been played already. Would make it visually easier to see how many games are left for each club and how many games are left overall. Could maybe highlight the cell green, yellow, or red depending on if they won, drew, or lost the game.

What do you guys think about this change? Chichibung (talk) 10:51, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

Mobile view

It is not working properly. What's happening @Stevie fae Scotland:? Island92 (talk) 09:41, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Pass, it loaded alright for me on desktop and mobile Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 10:52, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

No issues about that. I mean on mobile view sections remain open. Why? Island92 (talk) 11:08, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I did wonder about that tbf. I don't know why that is and I'm not sure where to ask to find out. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 12:49, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Ok. Island92 (talk) 13:32, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

@S.A. Julio: maybe knows it. Island92 (talk) 14:13, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

@Island92 and Stevie fae Scotland: I did some testing, I'm not exactly sure but I think it has to do with the size of the page. If you notice when previewing/saving an edit, it takes a long time for the page to load. For some reason this seems to cause the mobile headers to not collapse.

I'm realizing there will be issues with the post-expand include size and page performance unless we make some changes. The major issue is the 324 flag icons in the draw table. Would it be alright if I removed the flags from the eight opponents of each team? S.A. Julio (talk) 18:18, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

What about removing this section at all? What does it bring to the page? A results summary? Ok, but we did not have an entire table for group stage matches, previously. This is not a knockout phase segment of the competition. What about replicating something like this? Island92 (talk) 18:33, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

@Island92: That section is not causing the performance issues, it's primarily the flag icons. But to your point, that's what the discussion at Talk:2024–25 UEFA Champions League#League phase layout was about, deciding how to summarize the results. The issue with using a table like at the Premier League article is the almost 90% of it will be empty, and it would be huge/unwieldy. As a result it is not very helpful to readers. There also was an alternative option here of how we could summarize results in a compact way (this is similar to other league articles which do not use a round-robin format). S.A. Julio (talk) 18:50, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I mean, if we introduce an option that brings less flags is the best solution, seeing that the main issue is brought about having too many flags. That's it. Island92 (talk) 19:12, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

@Island92: Made the change, from my testing it seems to now collapse properly on mobile? S.A. Julio (talk) 19:19, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it works properly now. Thank you. Island92 (talk) 19:26, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

@Red Devil: Regarding your revert on the Europa League article, there will be issues with the page size if the flag icons are not reduced. Having 324 flags in a single table is too much, unless you have another suggestion. S.A. Julio (talk) 20:33, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I know, I was surprised to see such table, but maybe its somehow relevant. By page size you mean limit, when all the results will be displayed on page? I would then remove this table, because when fixtures are already displayed, their may be no need for draw results? @S.A. Julio Red Devil (talk) 20:36, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Standings

I know we are using the UEFA official webpage standings, but they are using a ranking like list instead of actual standings. I am going to assume which could be because Week 1 has not finished so they might update after; however, I think it is confusing. The Spanish version of this article is using actual standings so I think we should too. Thoughts? Lafuzion (talk) 12:47, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree. If the current argument is "we are just following UEFA" that's not been entirely past practice - when partial secondary results (like head-to-head implications) have been applied when the official site (even UEFA) have said these weren't to be applied until all matches were played. Based on that history, Real Madrid (for example) are ranked ahead of Juventus based on the 10 points their set of opponents (whether they have played them yet or not) have collected, against the 7 points Juventus' opponent group have amassed. Given that I can't imagine that people are going to prevent the application of that information after (say) 7 matches, I can't see the logic of not applying it now. 165.12.252.106 (talk) 07:07, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

IDK why UEFA is doing it like this because they have the tie breaker rules for this exact reason when teams are tied on points. ESPN[1], CBS Sports[2], and BBC Sports[3], to name a few are using actual standings. Lafuzion (talk) 13:13, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

"actual standings"? What about the current article isn't "actual standings"? There is a table which orders teams from first to last so I'm not really sure what you're on about. Stevie fae Scotland (talk) 14:12, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Oh you sound very upset. Have the day you deserve, buddy. Lafuzion (talk) 14:50, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Ouch. Anyhoo... Obviously, he is refering to the fact that those other sites have 8/9 etc in their tables whereas the wikipedia has 8/8 for Juve and Real (that is, they are completely equal). So, by the full list of tiebreakers they can be separated. Undermining this point (a lot) is the fact that all the sites listed have Juve and Real listed in the WRONG ORDER (ie, Real Madrid would be ranked ahead of Juve if the tournament ended today - the facts are noted in the figures in an earlier point here). I assume (I mean, I know) they are listed alphabetically. I would say we should split them - even noting the "we don't split until the whole tournament is over" - because I think (I mean, I know) that UEFA only put that point in because they think an utter weirdo would bother to work out the rules unless it's completely neccesary, forgetting of course that Wikipedia is full of such types. 110.33.22.59 (talk) 11:11, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Exactomundo. If we have the tie breaking rules in place then we should have proper standings. Two teams cannot finish in 8th place so it should be fixed accordingly, regardless of what the UEFA website is doing. Lafuzion (talk) 12:45, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

FWIW - Bert Kassies (of course) has the full table - at his site 165.12.252.106 (talk) 01:57, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Reading the note on this (the link to the UEFA version of the table), these aren't the "regulations". The regulations say nothing about only ranking on the first five points, that appears in the website version of the table. The link could easily be interpreted as saying "we aren't do the full ranking here unless we have to" and ranking as Kassies does is more accurate. 165.12.252.111 (talk) 07:23, 25 September 2024 (UTC)