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First edition

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Already discussed, and closed, at WT:FOOTY. Black Kite (talk) 13:52, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

According to FIFA, this will be the first edition of a new tournament titled Mundial de Clubes FIFA. The FIFA World Cub was discontinued. Danoniinho (talk) 11:52, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Danoniinho Please cite those sources, since that's in direct contradiction of what's cited in the article. —C.Fred (talk) 11:55, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Here: https://www.fifa.com/fifaplus/en/tournaments/mens/mundial-de-clubes/usa-2025/articles/mundial-de-clubes-25-teams-dates-venue-groups-draw-matches-tickets
"New tournament will be played for the first time in 2025"
"FIFA's new prime club competition - Mundial de Clubes FIFA™ - will..." Danoniinho (talk) 12:05, 19 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe eventually the new name will catch on but for now, the CWC is still commonly used: "Juventus advances to 2025 Club World Cup from Italy after Napoli eliminated from Champions League".[1] BLAIXX 00:58, 20 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
but despite this, FIFA says it is a new tournament, and not the 21st edition of the current tournament Danoniinho (talk) 21:11, 21 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia considers more than just the primary source for content decisions. See WP:SECONDARY and WP:COMMONNAME for more info. BLAIXX 03:03, 22 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe not the best reference, but this is the official handle of Gianni Infantino,
https://www.instagram.com/p/C5gWehcoYg6/?img_index=1
"The new Mundial de Clubes FIFA, to be hosted by the 🇺🇸 United States in 2025, is already promising to be a historic tournament"
The quote in the post. As you scroll through, it is the first edition, and a new trophy will be announced. 103.129.206.241 (talk) 10:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is definitely the first edition of a new tournament. I don't know why they are trying to postpone something that is already certain to happen.
All FIFA news articles corroborate this.
https://www.fifa.com/fifaplus/en/tournaments/mens/mundial-de-clubes/usa-2025/articles/race-mundial-de-clubes-fifa-qualification-heats-up-around-globe Danoniinho (talk) 22:41, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's FIFA being FIFA, that is, ambiguous. On the Lusophone Wikipedia (and only there), a separate article pt:Mundial de Clubes FIFA has already been created. I think we should wait for an official position from the FIFA regarding this matter, which will consequently lead the football world (sports media, etc.) to treat the competition as either a different championship from the FIFA Club World Cup initiated in 2000, or as its mere continuation. Now, I think we should follow Wikipedia's recommendations [[[WP:SECONDARY]] and WP:COMMONNAME. Note that in the general media, the competition continues to be treated as the first edition of the expanded tournament, which suggests that there have been previous editions of the FIFA Club World Cup, but this is the first time the tournament has been expanded to include more clubs. XICO (talk) 18:12, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
FIFA isn't ambiguous. It. has time and again, in multipole statements as stated above as clearly called it a new competition with a new trophy, and not a continuation of the previous competition.
Also fifa is starting another new competition, the FIFA Intercontinental Cup, with a format similar to the old FIFA World Cup.
PLEASE CALL THIS A NEW COMPETITION NOW! 103.174.35.205 (talk) 07:03, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please read Wikipedia:Official names, it has some information that will explain why this page hasn't been moved. In short, the official name is not always the Wikipedia title. BLAIXX 14:16, 26 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry it is wrong here. I am not going to give more sources examples, because there are many here already. But the point is that FIFA (the official entity that organizes the tournament) said that is the 1st edition of this tournament!
FIFA also named this tournament Mundial de Clubes FIFA differently from the old FIFA Club World Cup (from 2000 to 2023) that now changed its name to FIFA Intercontinental Cup.
Finally, talking about secondary sources and common name, there are many general media sources treating it as a NEW FIFA tournament. So keep the way it is right now is completely wrong! Fa30sp (talk) 14:00, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The first edition under a new-expanded format. FIFA can change the trophy. Who cares? The tournament is the same. Island92 (talk) 17:34, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The new tournament FIFA Intercontinental Cup is not connected to FIFA Club World Cup at all. Go here, click on Tournaments and you read FIFA Club World Cup 2025. Island92 (talk) 17:43, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think you didn't read anything. Read the information above that our mates posted with all links related and you will see that it is not just a "new-expanded format", it is a new tournament called Mundial de Clubes FIFA! Portuguese Wikipedia already adopted the correct definition as you can see here [2].
Everyone, who knows football a little bit, cares about it. The FIFA Intercontinental Cup, as you said, is a new tournament of course, but a continuation of the old FIFA Club World Cup. Also, the old FIFA Club World Cup is a continuation of the Intercontinental Cup and you can see it in the List of world champion football clubs.
I know that is kind of hard to understand, but I believe in you bro, I believe you are capable to do it! Fa30sp (talk) 18:13, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Your edit is a major change. You need consensus first. Please do not revert. Island92 (talk) 18:17, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In any case, please wait further information, at least for the time being. Island92 (talk) 18:20, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Whether it is a new tournament or not, the English speaking FIFA website lists it as the FIFA Club World Cup 2025. So on the English speaking Wikipedia, it should be listed as that. The first edition topic has still not gathered a consensus. Until then, no mass edits should be happening. Chris1834 Talk 19:07, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I completely understand that "1st edition" topic has still not gathered a consensus.
But I think my opinion or anyone else's opinion here doesn't matter, when we have FIFA and FIFA's president calling the tournament the NEW Mundial de Clubes FIFA on their official Instagrams, which is in English, as everyone can see here: https://www.instagram.com/p/C54MHGoIXDC/ Fa30sp (talk) 15:15, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That is 8 weeks old. There entire website called it that originally on the English site. But as of June 1st, they have changed their entire site to reflect the FIFA Club World Cup 2025 name, as can be seen by all the updated links in the article. I was actually all for changing the article to the Mundial name and thought it should be changed but that was before they seemed to have reverted to the common English name officially. Chris1834 Talk 17:27, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is a perfect example of why the Wikipedia article title policies are the way they are. I hope this will be a good learning experience for those involved in the discussion! BLAIXX 17:56, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bro the discussion is taking a different direction.
First of all, I just used that post from 8 weeks ago as an example. Let me give another one... June 2nd the last club qualified for Mundial de Clubes FIFA and they called "Mundial de Clubes FIFA" on FIFA and FIFA's president official profiles: https://www.instagram.com/p/C7tMDbYoA9L/
But the point I am discussing is regarding the continuity of a tournament and not the name of the article itself.
I am 100% in favor of keeping the name of the article as it is. If we translate Mundial de Clubes FIFA to English we will have "FIFA Club World Cup".
So what I'm saying is that this is obviously a new tournament, that's why FIFA and its president use the nomenclature NEW to refer to it and the name "FIFA Club World Cup" in another language "Mundial de Clubes FIFA", exactly to differentiate from the old one.
It is very simple to observe this, just see that the new FIFA Intercontinental Cup maintains almost the same format of the old FIFA Club World Cup (2000-23) and is very similar to a super cup (only with the champions of each continent participating)! Fa30sp (talk) 18:24, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bro, this discussion ended today (on the date that marks exactly 1 year to the start of the tournament) with a post from FIFA and its president, through their official social media, stating:
"One year to go until the FIFA Club World Cup 2025™️! 🤩 32 teams from all six confederations will gather in the United States for the inaugural edition next year" (https://www.instagram.com/p/C8O3bNsKvmV/)
Now, a new discussion opens about the title of this article (which in my opinion should be kept) and the article from the old FIFA Club World Cup (which in my opinion should be changed). But that is another discussion and is more in the sense of a formality. The most important thing is that we now officially have a position from FIFA and its president, confirming that this is the 1st edition of the new FIFA Club World Cup! Fa30sp (talk) 18:52, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, and please wait. Something confirmed on instagram is nothing. Island92 (talk) 21:35, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The first edition under a new-expanded format. That's it. @Chris1834:, @Blaixx:.--Island92 (talk) 21:41, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You wrong bro, it is officially the first edition, the INAUGURAL edition as its saying and you are fighting against the reality!
First of all, something confirmed on FIFA and FIFA's president official Instagrams is thousand times more valuable than if you wrote a final term on it!
Second, that's not only on Instagram, it is also on FIFA's website: https://www.fifa.com/en/tournaments/mens/club-world-cup/usa-2025/articles/mundial-de-clubes-25-teams-dates-venue-groups-draw-matches-tickets
I will quote just a few examples in this article on FIFA's website to help you:
"Find out all the information on the new club tournament with details of qualified teams, dates, competition format, hosts, tickets and more."
"New tournament will be played for the first time in 2025"
"The first edition of FIFA's new prime club competition will be played in the USA."
Read the article bro, find the true! Fa30sp (talk) 13:23, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, the first edition of FIFA's new prime club doesn't mean the first edition at all under the FIFA Club World Cup name. Island92 (talk) 13:44, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Read here. The new-look 32-team tournament is now just one year away means the new tournament under a new expanded-format, not a new tournament from scratch. Island92 (talk) 13:49, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No bro, it doesn't mean "the new tournament under a new expanded-format".. that's your interpretation on it! It really means new-look 32-team tournament and that's it!
Read the article on their official website and you will see the way FIFA treats it with Q&A and its right here: https://www.fifa.com/en/tournaments/mens/club-world-cup/usa-2025/articles/mundial-de-clubes-25-teams-dates-venue-groups-draw-matches-tickets Fa30sp (talk) 15:24, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've read the article multiple times! Your major edit is wrong and you were told not to insist on it because you need consensus first. Issue has been brought to Wiki Project Football talk page for the time being. Please stop edit war. Island92 (talk) 15:44, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Bro my major edit is correct because I'm using FIFA's website as a source, that's just the organization that rules football in the world!
But no, Wikipedia's user Island 92 thinks this is not the 1st edition of the tournament and that FIFA's website is wrong! Because of it I will have to wait for him to consent, and only after that I will be able to edit to correct the article!
Joke of the year hahahahahahahahahahahaha Fa30sp (talk) 16:01, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia is not a place where users should act like children. Island92 (talk) 16:19, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly! Like not replying without adding any content to the debate! Or not undo other users edits that are based on official sources.
But good for you that you accepted FIFA and FIFA's president position about this talk page section debate (here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Football#2025_FIFA_Club_World_Cup) Fa30sp (talk) 16:28, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, I did not accept anything. You miss-interpreted it. Island92 (talk) 16:41, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I just saw it.. so you still wrong and against FIFA and FIFA's president position!
You accept it or not doesn't change the fact hahahahahahahaha Fa30sp (talk) 16:45, 16 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Analyzing FIFA's posts from the last days and also FIFA's website I definitely changed my opinion, since before that I was really undecided about how FIFA was really treating this tournament.
But, at least in my opinion (that's why I'm bringing it up for discussion), now FIFA already decided that 2025 will be the 1st edition of a new FIFA Club World Cup since they are now treating it as "the inaugural champion" and "the inaugural edition".
On FIFA's website: "The inaugural edition of the FIFA Club World Cup will signal the start of a new era in club football history with a brand-new trophy becoming synonymous with the diversity and quality of the global game as club football brings the world together in the United States." [3] Also: "Find out the information on the new club tournament" [4]
On FIFA's Instagram: "...by the inaugural champion" [5]
But, how we will treat the old tournaments?
In my opinion, as FIFA already unified Intercontinental Cup (1960-2004) and FIFA Club World Cup (2000-2023) titles as world champions, also we already correctly treat as a continuation ("It ran from 1960 to 2004, when it was succeeded by the FIFA Club World Championship" - at Intercontinental Cup article) and now we have the new FIFA Intercontinental Cup, with almost the same format, I think the best thing to do is treat the last as a continuation, since all are Super cup like format and different tournaments from this FIFA Club World Cup (2025 onwards). SinisterUnion (talk) 18:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Now it doesn't mean anything. We need still to wait. The name FIFA Club World Cup is still there. Island92 (talk) 18:24, 5 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The name still there and will always be, unless they change it in the future and it doesn't matter at all. This would be the same thing saying Intercontinental Cup (1960-2004) is the same tournament as the new Intercontinental Cup (2024-), what is wrong too.
The fact is the article right now is clearly in disagreement with the highest football authority that treats it as "the inaugural champion" and "the inaugural edition".
Furthermore, it is also against important and renowned non-primary sources that already adapted themselves to FIFA's decision to call it the new FIFA Club World Cup and 2025 as its inaugural edition, as everyone can see here: [6] or [7], for example. SinisterUnion (talk) 03:08, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can we please stick to having this conversation at WT:FOOTY for now instead of spreading it across multiple pages? Jay eyem (talk) 04:43, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bringing the discussion to the right place... I will help summarizing the situation here too:

The international governing body of association football (FIFA) says 2025 is the inaugural edition and thats a fact. We can visit the tournament's official website to check, the tournament's guide on FIFA's official website, any article there (like the last one published) or any social media post from FIFA's official profiles (like this for example where it also says inaugural champion in the video).

Also, we have all important non-primary sources saying the same thing. 2025 FIFA Club World Cup is the inaugural edition of a new tournament, the same way FIFA says, as we can see at the last article published by ESPN a couple of days ago, just to give one example as I'm only summarizing here (for more examples read the full discussion, there a lot more there).

So, we have FIFA and all important non-primary sources saying the same thing, but we don't have consensus here. The valid arguments against this are that we should wait longer to see if FIFA will keep it that way.

Now, if we research we do find news from last year that this tournament was already being considered the inaugural one. But, what I really want to highlight here is that at least since June, FIFA has only been saying this tournament is the inaugural one, as we can see here, for example.

So, we already have (at least) 3 months of consolidation here, in my opinion more than enough to make a change. But I hope to hear more people's opinions and I fully respect them, whether they are in favor or against mine, this being my last comment in this discussion. Have a good one.

I applied for a ticket to watch the tournament and when registering my interest on FIFA's website, I came across the following message: "Join us at the first ever FIFA Club World Cup 2025™!" [8]

By the way, while talking to a friend who is a Borussia Dortmund fan, he corrected me when I said that at least since June FIFA has only been treating it as the inaugural edition of its tournament. No. This has been going on since at least March when Borussia Dortmund's participation in the tournament was announced by FIFA: "German team become the latest club to qualify for the first edition of the new global tournament". [9]

Finally, another piece of news published by FIFA on its social media yesterday. They published it on Instagram stories and also on Facebook. [10] Open quotes: "...gave them enough points to qualify for the new tournament in the USA". [11]

Once again, this is in line with what FIFA has been preaching, as I said before, at least since March. So, I can't agree more that it's bizarre not to make a change after almost 6 months of stabilization in the way FIFA treats this tournament, namely, as being the 1st edition. SinisterUnion (talk) 01:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There has been a lengthy discussion of this issue at WT:FOOTY, and the result of this was that the discussion is now closed. No consensus for change was reached, with the view of a majority of editors to wait until much closer to when the tournament begins. The discussion has been closed. Therefore, this does not mean that @SinisterUnion: should resume posting these same arguments trying to enact change back at this talk page. Matilda Maniac (talk) 01:30, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No. At WT:FOOTY we can clear read: "Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page." This means that I can resume posting the arguments here (actually, the right place to do it) to keep the discussion opened to everyone who wants to join it. Detail, with more and more people arguing in favor to change to 1st edition as we could see there. Let's stay grounded in reality, for the sake of Wikipedia and its reputation. SinisterUnion (talk) 02:19, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No consensus for change was reached at the discussion on WT:FOOTY, with the view of a majority of editors to wait until much closer to when the tournament begins. This does not mean you can post the same arguments here again and again. You have made your point clearly, in this thread, including the detailed summary you made yesterday. You should now give it a rest for a while, and see whether there is commentary from others. There would be further opportunities to change, and more likelihood of reaching consensus for change, if you wait until much closer to when the tournament begins. Wikipedia's reputation is not suffering from inactivity that you happen to disagree with. Matilda Maniac (talk) 04:53, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
SinisterUnion please stop posting the same sources now here just because the other discussion was closed. No consensus for change. Island92 (talk) 09:10, 15 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Articles for deletion/2025 FIFA Club World Cup qualifying

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Just wanted to make people aware of this so you can respond if you wish to contribute. Chris1834 Talk 13:46, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Chris. I'll put the link here: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/2025 FIFA Club World Cup qualifying. BLAIXX 13:57, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I created the article so that the rankings will be shown somewhere. I feel that there is not enough information on how the teams ranked by 4-year ranking, once they secured their spot. If the article is eliminated, there should be another one with the rankings or it should be placed in the main article, even if the qualification is already resolved. I feel that a separate article may be more useful for future editions, given that the rankings will have many teams. Largopajero (talk) 18:24, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The result was Delete‎. Matilda Maniac (talk) 11:10, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

4-year ranking

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I was looking at the articles in other languages. The French edition has the rankings in the main article and the Spanish has a separate article.

As I believe it is a fact that the qualifying article is going to disappear, I open the debate on where the tables should go.

In my opinion, if you don't show the tables to people, they won't understand how the teams are qualified by ranking, because even when CONMEBOL is resolved, there won't even be any information about how the points are earned. In fact, that information for UEFA teams is no longer found on Wikipedia.

Without the tables it is very difficult for people to understand how Salzburg is qualified, if we do not show them that in a 4-year ranking, they surpassed Ajax by one point. We are forcing people to look for information outside of Wikipedia, when I think the goal is to give as much information as possible.

Although today the tables are on the official FIFA website, I think it is a fact that once the new qualification begins, they will disappear and there will be nothing left for the archive. Largopajero (talk) 16:34, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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