Talk:Bulgars/Archive 7

BULGAR PAGE VANDALIZED !!!!

A user by the name of Beshogur edited the Wikipedia for the ancient nomadic peoples the Bulgars

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars

Bulgars are seen as the historical ancestors who gave birth to the ethnic Genesis of the Bulgarian people

There is a long debate on their origins if they were Turkic, Iranic, or of other origins and as these debates rage the account know as Beshogur edited the page with malicious nationalist intentions

It used to say “not to be confused with Bulgarians” but now it says “not to be confused with Bulgarian turks”

He intentionally edited this page to put his thumb in the eye of Bulgarian history and to appropriate it as Turkish

Truth is the average ethnic Turkish person is not even 10-20% of Turkic heritage

By adding “not to be confused with Bulgarian turks” it undermines Bulgarian history and heritage in a big way

Just look at this persons account

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Beshogur

It doesn’t take much digging to see this person is a Turkish nationalist set on twisting history

I deeply encourage Wikipedia to return it to “not to be confused with Bulgarians” and removed “Bulgarian turks” from the top banner

This is an insurance to Bulgarian history and heritage

I do not blame Wikipedia however this one bad egg deserves his moderator status revoked immediately!!! He is abusing for nationalistic purposes !!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ss84325 (talk • contribs) 06:06, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for this observation. Administrators, please, take actions, do something!!! MiltenR (talk) 21:52, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Aye, a real shame it comes to such things. Euiauaua (talk) 09:34, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

Would loce to see the page fixed finally 149.62.207.170 (talk) 14:04, 28 April 2024 (UTC)

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References

This guy Beshogur is a real vandal and Turkic nationalist, this is clear. Tries to keep page filled with inaccuracies, unsubstantiated claims. The article is not Bulgar oriented, but Turkic people oriented. MiltenR (talk) 15:58, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2021

The Bulgar ethnicity is currently unknown and scholars are simply guessing where they came from and what is their origin, therefore you cannot just assume ppl who spoke a certain language what their origins are. So the statement that the Bulgars are turkic nomads is simply not a correct first sentence to describe them in a national wide website. There are no certain proof as I said from any researcher, scholar or anyone that can show the origins of the Bulgars. 95.103.11.6 (talk) 12:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2021 (2)

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Bulgar

There is the trusted source for current research about being turkic tribe, U have submitted request prior this one and within this one I am attaching the source. 95.103.11.6 (talk) 12:07, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2021 (3)

Dear Editors,

The fact you just have placed an sentence that the Bulgars are Turkic trible as a first sentence which does not explains it is a theory not a fact,have made me think about how YOU use your sources and implement them on Wikipedia. I simply do not agree on the sentence you have submited on this article about Bulgars being Turkic tribe,saying it as it is a fact,while it is just a theory which was agreed on from some of historians and scholars,therefore does not make it real. I insist to have this look thru again since it is missleading,the Bulgars being Turkic tribe is a theory not a fact,just like the other theories of their origins. At the moment there are not a proven fact about their origins. SvetiNikolay (talk) 13:53, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:58, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Reliable sources and objectiveness

Greetings,

I've been reading the discussion page about the Bulgars article and I noticed that editors tend to discredit any sources which are in opposition to the Turkic hypothesis (or in favor of the Sarmatian one) as unreliable purely on the basis that they're from Bulgarian authors. When an editor asks for reliable sources in English, "non-Bulgarian" is always a requirement, which I think implies that contemporary Bulgarian academia are all extreme nationalists who are writing out of "anti-Turkish sentiment", thus making them unreliable or incompetent. I find this completely false (not to mention offensive), for the following reasons:

1.the Sarmatian/Iranian hypothesis exists long before the 90's - Russian historian Nikolai Marr was one of the first to propose a Sarmatian origin of the Bulgars in the early 20th century. Veselin Beshevliev wrote an article Iranian elements in the Proto-Bulgarians way back in 1967, where he concludes that all personal names from the Nominalia of the Bulgarian Khans are of Iranian origin and that this significant cultural influence has to be taken into consideration when determining Bulgar ethnogenesis.

2. the Turkic hypothesis was the official narrative about the Bulgars origin at the time of the Revival process and under Communist regime. So linking the Sarmatian/Iranian hypotheses of the 1990's with "anti-Turkish sentiments" and the Revival process in particular is simply absurd. Yes, there are many fringe theories in post-socialist Bulgaria which are nationalistic myths in their nature, such as the Bactrian hypothesis of P. Dobrev and the autochthonous hypothesis, but they emerge as a result of pluralism after the fall of old regime and cannot be linked to the Revival process when the Turkic theory was dominant.

I would also like to point out something else - when talking about "reliable sources", I think its ridiculous to refer to the Oxford's or some others Dictionary of World history as they are not historical/archeological research, but as dictionaries they themselves refer to previous research done mainly by Bulgarian historians such as Veselin Beshevliev (the first one to identify Bulgar inscriptions as Turkic), Vasil Zlatarski, Vasil Gyuzelev and others. Simply discrediting modern Bulgarian research made by serious academia as "nationalistic myths" or "anti-Turkish sentiments" without looking into the evidence itself is just lazy, anti-scientific and perhaps biased.

So, all that being said, I kindly ask the editors to review the sources below and finally do a fair edit on the Bulgars article as to represent the Scytho-Sarmatian hypothesis equally to the Turkic one. "Turkic semi-nomadic" has to be replaced with just "semi-nomadic". Britannica already edited their entry on the Bulgars in light of recent findings, so there's no reason for Wikipedia not to do the same. The fact that there is still an ongoing debate about the Bulgar origins amongst serious academia should be reason enough to edit the article, so I'm just appalled by the stubbornness of the editors here.

Mitochondrial DNA Suggests a Western Eurasian origin for Ancient (Proto-) Bulgarians - https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/194728109.pdf

Genetic evidence suggests relationship between contemporary Bulgarian population and Iron Age steppe dwellers from Pontic-Caspian steppe - https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/687384v3.full

Archaeological and genetic data suggest Ciscaucasian origin for the Proto-Bulgarians https://www.academia.edu/43735252/Archaeological_and_genetic_data_suggest_Ciscaucasian_origin_for_the_Proto_Bulgarians

Еastern roots of the Madara horseman Chobanov - https://www.academia.edu/44604518/%D0%95astern_roots_of_the_Madara_horseman_Chobanov

THE LEGACY OF SASANIAN IRAN AMONGST THE BULGARIANS ON THE LOWER DANUBE (BG text) - https://www.academia.edu/44902361/%D0%9D%D0%90%D0%A1%D0%9B%D0%95%D0%94%D0%A1%D0%A2%D0%92%D0%9E%D0%A2%D0%9E_%D0%9D%D0%90_%D0%A1%D0%90%D0%A1%D0%90%D0%9D%D0%98%D0%94%D0%A1%D0%9A%D0%90_%D0%9F%D0%95%D0%A0%D0%A1%D0%98%D0%AF_%D0%A3_%D0%91%D0%AA%D0%9B%D0%93%D0%90%D0%A0%D0%98%D0%A2%D0%95_%D0%9D%D0%90_%D0%94%D0%9E%D0%9B%D0%9D%D0%98%D0%AF_%D0%94%D0%A3%D0%9D%D0%90%D0%92_THE_LEGACY_OF_SASANIAN_IRAN_AMONGST_THE_BULGARIANS_ON_THE_LOWER_DANUBE

On the origin of the Proto-Bulgarians, Rashev Rasho 1992 http://www.kroraina.com/bulgar/rashev.html

Archaeological overview on the formation of Asparukh’s Protobulgarians Todor Chobanov Ph.D.,Ass.prof., Svetoslav Stamov MA, Duke University https://www.biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2019/07/24/687384/DC1/embed/media-1.pdf?download=true

Iranian elements in the Proto-Bulgarians Veselin Beshevliev 1967 (BG text) http://www.protobulgarians.com/Statii%20ot%20drugi%20avtori/Statii%20ot%20drugi%20avtori%20za%20indo-evropeyskiya%20proizhod%20na%20prabaalgarite/V_%20Beshevliev%20-%20Iranski%20elementi%20u%20pyrvobylgarite.htm

Thank you for taking the time to review this topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.123.127.19 (talk) 11:53, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

@188.123.127.19: Turkic one is not a hypothesis, it is documented and majority of historians agree with it, thus a mainstream view. Beshogur (talk) 12:37, 17 February 2021 (UTC)

@Beshogur: It's definitely not a theory amongst archeologists and it is considered an outdated theory amongst contemporary historians. That's why this article has to be revised so as to be more objective and up to date with modern research.

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template.  𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲𝘁𝗮𝗹𝗸 07:49, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for your observations. Administrators and moderators, please, take Acton’s and stop misleading information being included in this article. MiltenR (talk) 21:53, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2021

The Bulgar ethnicity is currently unknown and scholars are simply guessing where they came from and what is their origin, therefore you cannot just assume ppl who spoke a certain language what their origins are. So the statement that the Bulgars are turkic nomads is simply not a correct first sentence to describe them in a national wide website. There are no certain proof as I said from any researcher, scholar or anyone that can show the origins of the Bulgars. 95.103.11.6 (talk) 12:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template.  𝗙𝗼𝗿𝗺𝗮𝗹𝗗𝘂𝗱𝗲𝘁𝗮𝗹𝗸 07:50, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

To delete all misleading and unsourced information without the proper references. Is this clear? Delete every unsourced text, please! MiltenR (talk) 21:55, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Indo-European, Finno-Ugric and Hunnic?

This article said that the "Bulgars absorbed Indo-European, Finno-Ugric and Hunnic tribes".

The "Indo-European" language family is a mere hypothesis, and in this case refers only to Iranians. Finno-Ugric is a linguistic group, and Hunnic is a specific people/language.

It would be the same as saying that "Americans absorbed Nostratic, Celtic and Italians". It is not nescessarily wrong, but it is unnecessarily confusing and can lead to misinterpretations.

JebelAqra (talk) 05:32, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

IE is a "hypothesis"?? -HammerFilmFan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.0.129 (talk) 02:40, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Moderators and administrators, delete all unsourced information, please, save the name and dignity if Wikipedia! MiltenR (talk) 21:56, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Edit request

Dear Editors,

As continuation of "Semi-protected edit request on 11 July 2021 (3)" where the editor wanted clear specification of what to be changed and a reliable sources I would like to provide those with this post. Quote "Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:58, 11 July 2021 (UTC)"

Please change: "The Bulgars (also Bulghars, Bulgari, Bolgars, Bolghars, Bolgari,[1] Proto-Bulgarians[2]) were Turkic" to "The Bulgars (also Bulghars, Bulgari, Bolgars, Bolghars, Bolgari,[1] Proto-Bulgarians[2]) were Western Eurasian"

As already mentioned many times that the Turkic origin of the Bulgarians is just an old theory from the beginning of 20th century and that there is a lot of new official scientific evidence and as it was requested to provide reliable sources below I'm providing such with explanation.

Sources: 1. https://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/humbiol_preprints/69/ Mitochondrial DNA Suggests a Western Eurasian origin for Ancient (Proto-) Bulgarians Above is an official scientific study published by Wayne State University, Detroit, Michigan, USA.

2. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056779 Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry Above is official study published and peer-reviewed based on official international project with main studies performed in Italy, EU.

3. https://www.academia.edu/43735252/Archaeological_and_genetic_data_suggest_Ciscaucasian_origin_for_the_Proto_Bulgarians https://www.academia.edu/39761426/Genetic_evidence_suggests_relationship_between_contemporary_Bulgarian_population_and_Iron_Age_steppe_dwellers_from_Pontic_Caspian_steppe_bioRxiv_preprint_doi_https_doi_org_10_1101_687384 Above are listed official studies performed very recently, published, peer-reviewed and based on projects between Duke University, Harvard and National Archaeological Institute with Museum at the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences.

I hope this is more than enough evidence and sources to edit the page according to the recent international scientific studies.

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Genetic evidence "suggesting" something in preprint is not enough sourcing to overcome current sourcing and consensus. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:47, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

EDIT: Quote "Genetic evidence "suggesting" something in preprint is not enough sourcing to overcome current sourcing and consensus." I have to correct the editor and myself here - the listed papers are not all preprint. Providing explanation and correct links below:

1. https://digitalcommons.wayne.edu/humbiol/vol87/iss1/1/ https://shop.prod.wayne.edu/wsupjournals/wsupjournals/humbiol/human-biology-back-issues/human-biology-volume-87-number-1-winter-2015.html Citation DataHuman Biology, ISSN: 0018-7143, Vol: 87, Issue: 1 Publication Year 2015 This is clearly a published paper.

2. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056779 Published: March 6, 2013 https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0056779 Peer-reviewed and published too.

3. https://www.academia.edu/43735252/Archaeological_and_genetic_data_suggest_Ciscaucasian_origin_for_the_Proto_Bulgarians Papers of BAS Humanities and Social Sciences Vol. 6, 2019, No. 1 Published paper too.

So now I have provided you with links for the published papers and removed the two links with the preprint. Genetics is also a very precise science with clear and strict results and therefore the provided results and papers cannot be commented or refuted unless proven otherwise by relevant scientific research. Unless you can provide such scientific research stating something else I fully insist of you accepting my request and editing the page.

Again, please establish a consensus for this change. Looking at talk page it's clear this is contentious, so an edit request should not be opened until consensus exists. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 15:24, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Ok, I fully agree with you that looking at the talk page it is clear this is contentious. So until a consensus is established I would like to request the following change:

Please change: "The Bulgars (also Bulghars, Bulgari, Bolgars, Bolghars, Bolgari,[1] Proto-Bulgarians[2]) were Turkic..." to "The Bulgars (also Bulghars, Bulgari, Bolgars, Bolghars, Bolgari,[1] Proto-Bulgarians[2]) were semi-nomadic warrior tribes of disputed origin..." If it is disputed you cannot leave it like that as it is confusing the whole world as you will be providing unconfirmed and disputed information. I think this request is fair for both editors and readers.

Oppose, because this fringe theory is presented in the article. Jingiby (talk) 17:47, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Closing request while under discussion. Remember to change the answered no parameter to "yes" when the request has been accepted, rejected or on hold awaiting user input. This is so that inactive or completed requests don't needlessly fill up the edit requests category. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 18:34, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Quote: "Oppose, because this fringe theory is presented in the article." - It is not presented well enough as well as the rest of the main theories in existence (Iranian, Thracian). The text clearly says "Bulgars were Turkic" which is not fair representation and this is not the scientific way. If the topic is disputed as you clearly agree then make it such in reality. One more important thing - because of your apparent refusal to accept other scientific data and opinions and to present them fairly in this site an official signal to the Prosecutor's office of Republic of Bulgaria has been made. What is this? Few people will hold a whole country's history hostage, because they say so. Correct your ways immediately.

 Note: Requestor blocked for legal threats. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:28, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

Questions

Good Afternoon Editors,

I want to question two things on the article and hopefully understood and maybe get fixed.

First is the : Another theory linking the Bulgars to a Turkic people of Inner Asia has been put forward by Boris Simeonov, who identified them with the Pugu (僕骨; buk/buok kwət; Buqut), a Tiele and/or Toquz Oguz tribe. In the source section there is absolutely no evidence of reliable source to back this statement of the Prof. Simeonov. I want to know which of his work/book was used to be implemented in the article and also if its in English , if its a book the ISBN will be appreciated. However I have read his work and his conclusion is slightly different, which does not add anything here because its in his mother language. If no source can be forwarded, I trust the editors to make the necessary changes of that part. Second thing is : The Bulgars spoke a Turkic language, i.e. Bulgar language of Oghuric branch. Based on this source : However the linguistic impact of the Iranian world on the Turkic Bulgars is indisputable. For instance the name of the founder of Danubian Bulgaria was Asparukh, which is old Iranian in origin: "The Huns, Rome and the Birth of Europe", Hyun Jin Kim, Cambridge University Press, 2013, ISBN 1107009065, p. 68. I believe mentioning Turkic before Bulgar in the sentence is miss leading, since the language have different roots then the Turkic of Oghuric branch. If the Turkic either be moved or removed will be better understanding for the readers since the Bulgar part is a link to the language article and can be read there if reader is interested. I hope you can find time to discuss this with me. Thank you!

Regards Nikolay.rusev (talk) 11:54, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

@Beshogur, any reason of the revert ? Did you even notice my objections and the reason of the edit? If you have not please provide your statement of defending that part of the article and please consider my objections. Not sure why you reverting without stating anything. Regards Nikolay.rusev (talk) 11:35, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

To add to this, please Симеонов, Б. Прабългарска ономастика, Пловдив, 2008,( Simeonov , Boris “Prabylgarska Onomastika” , Plovdiv ,2008 ) Is the work of the professor which have different conclusion if you compare it in the article. If you have not read the book or not willing to do so, first you are not following Wikipedia way of work and second you are dishonoring prof Simeonov work by saying that this is his hypothesis. Either change what its said in the article or completely remove because it has no reliable source to back it. Thank you. Regards

Nikolay.rusev (talk) 12:18, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

I can't understand, why no response if something is being requested on this article

Many things to say regarding this article is that some of the sources are taken credit for,another not and the whole article seems a little bit contradicting with follow up articles. This article begins with clear statement the Bulgars are semi-nomadic turkic people, coming from Central Asia. ( I am not here to dispute origins ) If we follow up with the article to the Origins, we see that the origins of the Bulgars are unclear and not able to be traced prior 4th century AD. This being said, its assumed they are already turkic but first sentence of the article says they are what they are. If we follow up with the Book of Sui , also mentioned in the article : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_migration , we can find the following :

The Book of Sui mentions only tribes which were not part a part of the First Turkic Khaganate.[18] There was not a unified expansion of Turkic tribes. Peripheral Turkic peoples in the Göktürk Empire like the Bulgars and even central ones like the Oghuz and Karluks migrated autonomously with migrating traders, soldiers and townspeople.

With that being followed to the turkic migration , it seems like the Bulgars themselves indentified themselves different then the turkic Empire, so they migrated and kept calling themselves differently. Conclusion, The roots and origins of these people were hard to trace prior 4cn AD , they self-indentified themselves differently from the source Book of Sui, but we have clear sentence calling them turkic. Will give an example, if an American indentify himself American, but his roots are from Germany, from the bigger picture, he is german, it doesn't change the fact of his roots with where he lives. It will be similar also if an American with unknown roots (unknown origin) he is american with unknown roots(I am looking for such neutrality in this article) That being said the Bulgars were in a empire where they refused to be in and called the same. I believe thats a quiet enough evidence to clear this article of this sentence. For a neutral reader as me when I followed up the first article, this is not clearly understandable, If the roots of this tribe were unclear and not able to be traced, I believe a more neutral opening of this article should be done. I suggest instead:

X: The Bulgars (also Bulghars, Bulgari, Bolgars, Bolghars, Bolgari,[1] Proto-Bulgarians[2]) were Turkic semi-nomadic warrior tribes that flourished in the Pontic–Caspian steppe and the Volga region during the 7th century.

Y:The Bulgars (also Bulghars, Bulgari, Bolgars, Bolghars, Bolgari,[1] Proto-Bulgarians[2]) were semi-nomadic turkic speaking tribes that flourished in the Pontic Caspian steppe and the Volga region during the 7th century. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nikolay.rusev (talk • contribs) 11:49, 14 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 July 2022

Bulgarian historians believe that the ancient Bulgarians spoke a language that is from a different group compared to today's Bulgarian. Some researchers attribute the speech of our ancestors to the Turkic languages, and others to the Iranian ones. None of the two groups of specialists explain the mystery: Why is there not a single Turkic or Iranian word in the entire Old Bulgarian equestrian terminology?

Neither кон - horse nor кобила, жребец, седло, юзда, стреме, лък, тулъ (колчан), стрела, тетива, острие, яздя, ездач - mare, stallion, saddle, bridle, stirrup, bow, quiver, arrow, string, blade, ride, rider, etc. do not belong to the Turkic or Iranian linguistic wealth. On the other hand, in the Thracian onomastics we find Kone, Kobilatus, tula-, Uzdika, Asdul, Ezdikaya, etc., but this apparently does not affect anyone. It is as if there is a taboo that any connection between the old Bulgarians and the local Balkan population should be avoided. Even if we did not have the Thracian words indicating that the Bulgarian equestrian terminology is of Balkan origin, the scholars were well aware of what a serious problem the complete lack of Iranian or Turkic terms was, and of course this was not shared either with the students or with the general public . 73.211.25.167 (talk) 21:19, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:45, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Этимология Etymology

In Russia , it is considered by some linguists that Oghur (ogur) from the Turkic word: ökü+z - w+ogu+r - b+uqa - bulls (oghuz<chuvash<kipchak<english). Among the Greeks, this form was mentioned in the forms: "onogundur" and "hunugundur". From Chinese "gundur" this 公牛 - gōng niú - Bull. Hun gōng niú - ten bulls! The very first mention of the Bulgarians was at the beginning of the 3rd century and appear in Chinese chronicles in the form: "the five parts of xiongnu" (hunnu, huns), when General Cao Cao (died 216) of the Wei Empire ruled. Bull ancient times, the Turks had a totemic animal personifying power and strength, from him the Turks have the title bogatyr, which means knight and translates as a strong bull.

Comparison with Turkic languages In the VIII—X centuries in Central Asia, the ancient Turkic script (the Orkhon-Yenisei runic script) was used for writing in Turkic languages. Turkic epitaphs of VII-IX AD were left by speakers of various dialects (table): Often in the Chuvash language, the Turkic sounds -j- (oghuz), -d- (uighur), -z- (kipchak) are replaced by -r- (oghur), example rotacism: Words in the Turkic languages: leg, put- j - language (Oguz): ajaq, qoj- d - language (Uyghur): adaq, qod- z - language (Kypchak): azaq, qoz- r - language (Oghur): urah, hor- Often in the Chuvash language, the Turkic sound -q- is replaced by -h-, example hitaism : Words in Turkic languages: black, goose, girl, zucchini Oghuz, kipchaks: qara, qaz, qyz, qabaq Oghur: hora, hor, hĕr, hopah The -h- sound disappears and disappears if it is the last letter . Dudaq - Tota - Lips instead of Totah Ayaq - Ora - Leg instead of Orah Baliq - Polă - Fish instead of Polăh Ineq - Ĕne - Cow instead of Ĕneh Turkic sound -j- (oguz) and -ž- (kipchaks) is replaced by chuvash -ş-, example: Words in Turkic languages: egg, snake, rain, house, earth Oghuz: jumurta, jylan, jagmur, jort, jez (turk., azerb., tat.,) Kipchaks: žumurtka, žylan, žamgyr, žort, žer (kyrgyz., kazakh.) Oghur: şămarta, şĕlen, şămăr, şort, şĕr The Turkic sound -š- is replaced by the Chuvash -L-, example lambdaism: Words in Turkic languages: winter, silver, sun Oghuz, Kipchaks: qyš, qemeš, qoyaš Oghur: hĕl, qӗmӗl, hĕvel In the field of vowels, we observe the following correspondences: the common Turkic -a- in the first syllable of the word in Chuvash correspond to -o-. Words in Turkic languages: horse, coin, head, step Oghuz, Kipchaks: at, akça, baš, adym Oghur: ot, okşa, poş, otăm In the field of vowels, G. F. Miller observes another example when -u- is replaced by -wo- or -wă- Words in Turkic languages: fire, ten, forest, russian, he, thirty, bull Kipchaks: оt, оn, оrman, orus, ol, оtyz, buqa Oghur: wot, won, wărman, wyrăs, wăl, wătăr, wogur Oghuz: ut, un, urman, urus, ul, utyz, öküz Oghur (dialects): wut, wun, wărman, wyrăs, wăl, wătăr, wăgăr The fricative -g- in some words in Chuvash corresponds to -v- Words in Turkic languages: native, mountain Oghuz: tugan, dag Oghur: tăvan, tov

The word Oghur (ogur) is translated as bull. In the modern Chuvash language it has the form of both a "Wogur" (riding dialect) and "Wăgăr" (grassroots dialect). By analogy with the ethnonym Oguz, where the word "öküz" is translated from Turkish and Azerbaijani as bull. OghuZ = OghuR = Bull (rhotacism) Z -> R. Other ethnonyms such as Utigurs, Kutrigurs,Hungarians and Bulgars also originate from Oghur (ogur). The name Ut(r)igur, recorded as Οὺτ(τ)ρίγουροι, Οὺτούργουροι and Οὺτρίγου, is generally considered as a metathesized form suggested by Gyula Németh of Turkic *Otur-Oğur, thus the *Uturğur mean "Thirty Oğurs (tribes)". Golden, Peter B. (2011). Studies on the Peoples and Cultures of the Eurasian Steppes.

Ut(r)igur - *Otur-Oğur - *Uturğur mean "Thirty Oğurs (tribes)"

Kutrigurs - kutri oghur - Kotrag tribes (From the Chuvash language , the name Kotrag means curly) Kotrag was according to Nikephoros I of Constantinople a son of Kubrat of the Dulo clan of Bulgars. The Chronicle of Michael the Great calls him Kazarig. Following the death of his father, he began to extend the influence of his Bulgars to the Volga River. He is remembered as the founder of Volga Bulgaria. Khan Kotrag, the leader of the Kutrigurs, came to the Volga and founded Volga Bulgaria, where there were five Ogur tribes: Kutrigurs, Suvars, Askil, Barsil and Barangar. Ibn Fadlan's notes say that the prince of Suvar was Virag.

Saragurs — Sara oghur - white oghur tribe

Onogurs - Hungarians - hun oghur - ten oghur tribes: On ogur (lat. Ungari, gr. Οὑγγρικός, Οὖγγροι, fre. hongroi(s), rus.wenger, belorus.wugorac, sl. vogr, pol. węgier, węgrzyn, lit.veñgras)

Bulgars - bul oghur - five oghur tribes: Bul ogur (gr. Βούλγαροι)

The word "five" in the Volga Bulgarian language is found on the epitaph of the Volga Bulgarians in the text as: "tarikha şeti şur byul şol" — "the length of the seven hundred and fifth year" — where the بول "bul" is "five". Nowadays, in the modern Chuvash language, which is a continuation of the Volga Bulgarian language, the word five is still written as "pil", unlike the typically Turkic "bish", this is due to Chuvash Lambdaism: SH -> L (qyš - hĕl, qemeš - qӗmӗl, qoyaš - hĕvel). The tribes of the Bulgars are often mentioned in the chronicles: Kutrigurs, Suvar, Аskil, Bersula and Barangar. Among the Greeks, this form was mentioned in the forms: "onogundur" and "hunugundur". From Chinese "gundur" this 公牛 - gōng niú - Bull. Hun gōng niú - ten bulls! The very first mention of the Bulgarians was at the beginning of the 3rd century and appear in Chinese chronicles in the form: "the five parts of xiongnu" (hunnu, huns), when General Cao Cao (died 216) of the Wei Empire ruled. The etymology of the ethnonym Bulgar was given more than a hundred years ago by the Hungarian linguist Munkachi Bernat: Bulgar — "five Ugrians". We remind you that Hungarians call themselves Magyars. Bull ancient times, the Turks had a totemic animal personifying power and strength, from him the Turks have the title bogatyr, which means knight and translates as a strong bull. Here are the Turkic words: turk. Boğa, tat. Bug, alt. Buka, orekh-yeniseisk Buqa, chuv. Wăgăr, bulg. Oghur. In some non-Turkic languages , the root of this word is the same: byk (Rus.), bike (Hungarian), boq (oset.), boqe (Persian). The word Bogatyr " is also known in the forms: bahadur, bator, batyr (batyr), batur, bootur, bahadir, pattar, Mong. bayatur, et al.-Turk. bagatur — hero, brave warrior — an honorary title among the Mongolian and Turkic peoples for military services, attached to the name (for example, Subedei-bagatur, Yesugei-bagatur) — "hero", "valiant warrior".

Grousset thought that the Kutrigurs were remnants of the Huns, Procopius recounts: in the old days many Huns, called then Cimmerians, inhabited the lands I mentioned already. They all had a single king. Once one of their kings had two sons: one called Utigur and another called Kutrigur. After their father's death they shared the power and gave their names to the subjected peoples, so that even nowadays some of them are called Utigurs and the others - Kutrigurs.

They occupied the Tanaitic-Maeotic (Don-Azov) steppe zone, the Kutrigurs in the Western part and the Utrigurs towards the East. This story was also confirmed by the words of the Utigur ruler Sandilch: It is neither fair nor decent to exterminate our tribesmen (the Kutrigurs), who not only speak a language, identical to ours, who are our neighbours and have the same dressing and manners of life, but who are also our relatives, even though subjected to other lords". The outstanding Russian historian, ethnographer and geographer of the XVII century V.N. Tatishchev in his "History of Russia" states: "Down the Volga River, the Chuvash, ancient Bulgarians, filled the entire county of Kazan and Simbirsk!" He also noted; "Down the Kama lived Bilyars, or Bulgarians, and Cholmats (the name of the Kama River in Chuvash)... now the remnants of their Chuvash, of which there are enough down the Volga", "The Bulgarian peoples of the Chuvash who left"; "the Bulgarians of the Volga predicate the same language with the Hungarians and the Danube Bulgarians from the same who came." He also wrote: "Their own name (Bulgar), according to Karpin, is seen as Bylers (Püleres), the Tatars call them "Buller". These Bulgarians were divided in two by the Russians: upper and lower." The Chuvash have a division into Upper (Viryal) and Lower (Anatri). It was only in 1863 that the Tatar scientist Huseyn Feyzkhanov solved the mysteries of the Bulgarian epitaphs and wrote "Three Bulgarian Tombstone Inscriptions", in which he presented to the scientific community the results of deciphering the Bulgarian epitaphs in Chuvash words. That is, Tatishchev at that time did not even know about this fact with the Bulgarian monuments, and H. Feyzkhanov only confirmed this fact about 200 years after Tatishchev's death. To date, many world linguists have unequivocally proved that the Chuvash language is a continuation of the Bulgarian-Ogur language. 90% of the epitaphs found on the territory of Volga Bulgaria and about 400 of them are written in the Oghur-Chuvash language. 176.52.111.23 (talk) 00:45, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

First off - your post is far, far too long. Secondly, you are discussing the topic - this is NOT what the TP's are for. Third, you are bringing no Reliable Sources to the table for the improvement of the article. This is just a waste of time, otherwise. 50.111.25.27 (talk) 21:14, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

"Turkic"... "Turkic"... "Turkic"?

From informative standpoint, this article is so distorted, I think it's close to useless. How much of it is conjecture, and how much - hard data? The problem, by the way, I would have to disappoint you, is not the grammar or formatting (!), but the material in its entirety. The core hypotheses or theories carry clear signs of powerful geopolitical and cultural agendas since the times of the Ottoman empire. They may be interesting as a window to evolution of historical thought, but that's it. Improvement would be a text of smaller volume, containing the honest "We don't know" approach for this subject. You must rely on the multiple lines of inquiry of Bulgarian science, as the foundational sorce for this article. Nothing else can make it worth reading!
Final side note. Should an ethnic and confessional descriptor with modern (and archaic too!) narrow meaning ("Turk"), be overgeneralized for convenience, to retroactively cover a different ethnonym, that pre-dated its first appearance in historical record? Utar Sigmal (talk) 03:27, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

In English, the term Turk is ambiguous between Turkic and Turkish. This article mostly uses the unambiguous "Turkic", but when it does use the ambiguous term I think it's pretty clear from the context what is meant. Isn't it? As for your main point, if you have any sources that would provide valuable new perspectives, bring them on! They just need to be reliable though: as with the ethnic origins of many other nations, this topic has seen a lot being published that's not reliable. The bar here is WP:HISTRS, and that's higher than for most other areas of Wikipedia. – Uanfala (talk) 21:38, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Appreciate the hint, that I somehow have misunderstood or don't know the meaning of English terms I've encountered multiple times already. It kind of supports some of my concerns bellow.

Some quick points on what I've noticed in English articles about Bulgaria:

● Tendentious management of facts.

● Incorrect core terminology. ("Bulgars" and "Bulgarians", "Old Church Slavonic" instead of "Old Bulgarian" etc. ). Language shapes reality. Shift the language, and you get a different reality!

● Marginal theories, elevated to the rank of mainstream explanation. The more offensive or illogical, the better.

● Long held stereotypes as a substitute for real depth of knowledge about the subject. The examples from Bulgaria itself are especially useful - by referring to them, an impression for external impartiality can be made, while the objective is being achieved. "With your stones, on your head."

● The routine reflex to accuse Bulgarians of rumbling against the box their past is stuffed in, because they inexplicably(!?) just hate Turks, is both extremely lazy and insulting, in effect denying the capacity (or the right?) of collective self-reflection, or the expression of it, to an entire nation. "They cannot think for themselves, so we have the obligation to reveal to them who they really are." That shows how deep imperialism is embedded in the Western paradigm of the World. Unfortunately, the "turkic trap" here is set by very unpleasant coincidence of the interests of all three empires of old — British, Ottoman and Russian. That's why it's not going away any time soon. Even a mountain of clear data pointing in other direction(s) won't be enough for the international mainstream doctrines to change their tune on the matter. Because it is not purely a historical issue! It never was. It's geopolitics, which is based on different kind of logic altogether.

Why is the use of "Turkic", in my humble view, unfitting in the instance of Danube Bulgaria's creators? It is a concept, that is both speciffic and extremely vague at the same time.

—Turkic peoples are nomads.

—Turkic peoples are of all places in Central Eurasia.

—Turkic peoples are of all major religions.

—Turkic peoples are of all Eurasian races.

—Turkic peoples are of various ethnicities and cultures.

Not quite like "Slavs", "Celts" or "Vikings", wright! It is closer to becoming a synonym for "human".

So, how can we tell if Bulgars belonged to them?

Were Bulgars called "Turks" in the historical sources?

No, they were not. They didn't call themselves that way, and no one else did. They fought Turks though. To equate them with their enemies (enslavers) for convenience of the academic circles is a perversion!

—Turkic peoples are of various genetic lineages.

I hate to point this out to the otherwise (over)vigilant wiki-bureaucrats, monitoring this discussion/article, but human genome research already has proven, that the state-building branch, known (in the old documents) as Bulgars, match perfectly the classic Scythians, with a strong Caucasian trace for their place of origin.

Last two claims:

—Turkic peoples speak Turkic languages.

This one is better. What was the language of the Bulgars? Apparently unknown. Words, that are linked to them, surprisingly well can be read with the help of several major Indo-European languages - Avestian, Sanskrit, even Slavic and Thracian (!). To what extent these few words are representitve of their language as a whole, is unclear. Loanwords? By the way, the title of their kings was not khan! It is kanas, later to the Slavic form knyaz.

—Huns are Turkic peoples, therefore Bulgars are too.

By association. Are the Huns in fact Turkic? Or this assumtion hangs by even thinner thread. They were a large bundle of different arrows, we are told. The complex interaction between genetics (race), culture and language is not yet accounted by the mainstream historical discipline.

Bulgars are Bulgaric. Their own unique brand of ancient "admixing" Indo Europeans.

In conclusion, the Turkic categorization of Proto-Bulgarian culture is artificially supported, and contradicts a substantially larger, rich body of evidence for the Indo-Iranian theory of origin, that is an expression of multi-disciplinary approach towards the subject. The same cannot be said about the former.

It should be downrated as a model for explanation of the deep past of Bulgarian people, as it reflects reality to a limited extent.

Thank you for the reply, I will add text if/when I can.

I hope it sticks, but I doubt it. Wikipedia is often a tool for manipulation of public perceptions, I'm afraid. History is written by the victors. Utar Sigmal (talk) 12:24, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

@Utar Sigmal: please do not edit answered (by others) comments. Even if it's yours. Beshogur (talk) 17:18, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for this discussion, it’s vital for this page. It’s an article about the Bulgars, not the Turkic people in general. MiltenR (talk) 15:13, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

It is an article about the Bɤ̞lgari, and yet... it's filled with the ethnonym "Turk". How come? Why put one ethnonym on top of the other? Is it more descriptive? Is it a synonym? Proven in documents? Modern Turkish writers are given as sources for what the name Bɤ̞lgari means... If I may speak my mind freely, this is simply outrageous. Essentially, we have an emphatic push from the West, and a push from the East, to convince us that the Bɤ̞lgari are not Bɤ̞lgari... Utar Sigmal (talk) 08:23, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

@Utar Sigmal: Just a short comment from an incidental passer-by: If your starting point is that the Bulgars should not be described as Turkic, but as "Bulgaric", I am afraid that you will be in for a hard time trying to find reliable scholarly sources supporting it. The term "Bulgaric" will be very hard to find at all in any sources, harder even in the kind of sources that is needed for articles like this one, see WP:HISTRS. Just saying. --T*U (talk) 11:16, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Genetic studies

Genetic studies without participation of Bulgarian researchers, i.e. whose conclusions aren't written by Bulgarians are clear: Western Turkic peoples sampled across West Eurasia shared an excess of long chromosomal tracts that are identical by descent (IBD) with populations from present-day South Siberia and Mongolia (SSM), an area where historians center a series of early Turkic and non-Turkic steppe polities. Also: Our results provide support for a rapid long-distance trans-Eurasian migration of Avar-period elites. These individuals carried Northeast Asian ancestry matching the profile of preceding Mongolian Steppe populations, particularly a genome available from the Rouran period. Some of the later elite individuals carried an additional non-local ancestry component broadly matching the steppe, which could point to a later migration or reflect greater genetic diversity within the initial migrant population. These citations are from 2015 complex study called The Genetic Legacy of the Expansion of Turkic-Speaking Nomads Across Eurasia by Bayazit Yunusbayev et al, published in PLOS Genetics doi: 10.1371/journal.pgen.1005068 and from 2022 study called Ancient genomes reveal origin and rapid trans-Eurasian migration of 7th century Avar elites by Guido Alberto Gnecchi-Ruscone et al, doi: 10.1016/j.cell.2022.03.007. Also this conclusion about modern Bulgarians' East Asian admixture: Science, 14 February 2014, Vol. 343 no. 6172, p. 751, A Genetic Atlas of Human Admixture History, Garrett Hellenthal at al.: "CIs. for the admixture time(s) overlap but predate the Mongol empire, with estimates from 440 to 1080 CE (Fig.3.) In each population, one source group has at least some ancestry related to Northeast Asians, with ~2 to 4% of these groups total ancestry linking directly to East Asia. This signal might correspond to a small genetic legacy from invasions of peoples from the Asian steppes (e.g., the Huns, Magyars, and Bulgars) during the first millennium CE." ThanksJingiby (talk) 09:57, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

User:MiltenR, the presented Bulgarian research is out of date, primary source. Only the analyzes were carried out in laboratory in Italy. The conclusions are written by Bulgarian authors listed below. Moreover, it is primary, and Wikipedia relies mainly on secondary sources. All secondary sources of non-Bulgarian teams that are secondary are in abs. This study was supported by the National Science Fund of Bulgaria, project “Characterization of the anthropo-genetic identity of Bulgarians,” contract number DOO 2-110/22.05.2009. Authors: - D.V. Nesheva - Institute of Medical Genetics, MU - Sofia - Sena Karachanak - Yankova - Institute of Medical Genetics, MU - Sofia - Yordan Yordanov-Institute of Experimental Morphology, Pathology and Anthropology with Museum, Bulgarian Academy of Sciences - A. Galabov-Institute of Microbiology "Stefan Angelof", Bulgarian Academy of Sciences - Draga Toncheva - Institute of Medical Genetics, Sofia, 2 Zdrave Street, etc. I also don't understand why the citation and source for the title Khan were deleted when they were previously requested.Jingiby (talk) 11:46, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Those are latest genetic research of samples of Bulgars. You should consider it. Its concluded by an international team, but the nationality of the scientists is without any relevance, really, I don’t understand this way of thinking, there is no logic in what are you saying. MiltenR (talk) 15:19, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Lol! It is frivolous to claim that a Bulgarian study is not Bulgarian, moreover that a primary source like it, which contradicts a number of secondary sources, newer and far more complex than it, is more reliable than those. Deleting all sources you don't like, as well their conclusions, is bordering vandalism. Jingiby (talk) 10:21, 13 November 2022 (UTC)

You should consider all these recent genetic studies that prove that present-day Bulgarians and Proto-Bulgarians are extremely similar and of Western Eurasian origin and also that Bulgarians and even Proto-Bulgarians have no genetic similarities with either the Turks, or Turkic and Altaic populations.” MiltenR (talk) 19:26, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Miserable quality

The article is full of original research, unverified content and unbalanced views. Next to this, there are multiple issues with this article, in part by a large amount of OFF-TOPIC paragraphs and semi-relevant content which seems to have been copy pasted into this article. Some arguments, such as Hunno-Bulgar languages, are Wikipedia:Fringe theories, without any academic support, see the talk discussion there. The "theory was created by the user VolgaBulgari and is nothing more than POV. Refer to the talk and the involved users.

Furthermore, the concensus is that the language is not exactly known, with the Bulgars being a confederation of tribes including a ruling class with various Turkic and Iranian components, not solely Turkic. Did anyone verified these arguments here? Last but not least, the article structure is anything from encyclopedic. I will inform the Wikipedia:Quality control. Orange172212 (talk) 12:01, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 31 March 2023

The Bulgars are not a Turkic tribe.

"...a shared paternal ancestry between proto Bulgarians and Altaic and Central Asian Turkic-speaking groups either did not exist or was negligible."

- Karachanak, Sena, et al. “Y-Chromosome Diversity in Modern Bulgarians: New Clues about Their Ancestry.” PLOS ONE, Public Library of Science, 6 Mar. 2013, https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article/citation?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0056779. 149.62.208.8 (talk) 13:53, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 19:51, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 May 2023

I would remove

Not to be confused with Bulgarians or Bulgarian Turks.

} since most of the mentioned groups believe they are heirs of the so called Bulgars. Rjangelov (talk) 18:57, 8 May 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: This disambiguation serves to direct users to the right article, should they end up in the wrong one accidentally. It does not imply or communicate to users that the articles' subjects are entirely distinct. Actualcpscm (talk) 18:30, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

See also section

Per WP:SEEALSO, i removed an entry that is already in the the article. If an editor wants to go against this, that is fine, make a case here and gain consensus for going against norms and I will re add it. thank you. Malerooster (talk) 14:44, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

You don't need an explanation, this user is simply disruptive. Beshogur (talk) 17:26, 20 May 2023 (UTC)

Citations

1. Carl Waldman - musician

2. Vasil Gyuzelev - Bulgarian communist

4. Peter Golden - turkic origin

7. Kevin Alan Brook - business administrator

IS THIS ARTICLE A BAD JOKE ??? 2A02:8084:8183:980:E9EF:BE92:AC71:FFB3 (talk) 21:17, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 August 2023

Change "An image depicting Kurbat (in center), ruler of Bulgars." to "An image depicting Kubrat (in center), ruler of Bulgars."

Kubrat is misspelled as "Kurbat" FreeMarket77 (talk) 05:26, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done —Sirdog (talk) 03:30, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

The origin of Bulgars

The Great Yuezhi entered Europe together with the Huns and in the beginning they were called with their old name Massagetae. For example St Jerome tells us about the Great Hun raid of 395-6 into Armenia and Syria that " swarms of Huns and monstrous Massagetae filled the whole earth with slaughter". However the Huns, not the Massagetae attacked the Alans, who threw themselves upon the Goths. After the collapse of the Hun Empire and the lost of the Battle of Nedao in 455, the Huns and Massagetae, now called with the name Bulgars, retreated to their "inner" territory on the river Dnieper (Ukraine) where they reorganized on a smaller scale.

The results of the research on the origin of Bulgars lead to one particular region in Middle Asia - the lower and middle reaches of the Syr Darya. After the second century AD the Sarmatian culture on the lower reaches of the Volga underwent significant changes. New features uncharacteristic for the previous period appeared: artificial deformation of the skulls, narrow burial pits and pits with a niche, cut into one of the walls. These features are also found in later Bulgar necropoles. The northern orientation of the burials is typical for the burial practices of the Huns and of part of the Yuezhi. The Huns, Bulgars and part of the Yuezhi share some common burial practices as the narrow burial pits, pits with a niche and the northern orientation of the burials.

Edwin G. Pulleyblank, Yury Zuev and some modern Bulgarian scholars identify the Bulgar Utigurs as one of the tribes of the Yuezhi. According to Edwin G. Pulleyblank and Yury Zuev the Utigurs of Menander are Uti, and the word Uti was a real proto-type of a transcription Yuezhi < Uechji < ngiwat-tie < uti.

Kidar Bulgars involved in the Hunnic migrations into Europe were identified with Kidarites by David Marshall Lang. According to the Chinese sources Kidarites originated from the Yuezhi. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8084:8183:980:B103:39A7:FE81:1A2D (talk)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 2 September 2023

The Turkic origin is just alleged. 37.63.96.248 (talk) 12:04, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 15:21, 2 September 2023 (UTC)

The origin of the ancient Bulgarians, also called Proto-Bulgarians and Bulgars

Their one of in is highly debated. https://europe-nations.estudosculturais.com/pdf/0116i.pdf MiltenR (talk) 21:47, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

See WP:RELIABLE and WP:WEIGHT.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 17:33, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Administrators actions needed, please

In this highly disputes article and topic, lets just stick to non contradictory information, please. Take actions. MiltenR (talk) 21:50, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

All unsourced information to be deleted

All unsourced information to be deleted, please. This is what should be done according to Wikipedia policies and guidelines. Please! MiltenR (talk) 21:57, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

In this edit you removed information claiming that it had "no sources" although it was reliably sourced. Please do not make such WP:DISRUPTIVE edits.--Miki Filigranski (talk) 17:37, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 October 2023

"thus forming the ancestors of modern Bulgarians."

should be changed to

"thus forming a very small part of the ancestors of modern Bulgarians."

The Bulgars are a small part of the ancestors of the Bulgarians as approximately 2.3% of Bulgarian genes originate in Central Asia, eventually corresponding to tribes such as the Bulgars, with admixture peaking in the 9th century CE; 130.204.61.225 (talk) 19:55, 21 October 2023 (UTC)

References

Holding, waiting peer review for reference. -Lemonaka‎ 12:12, 23 October 2023 (UTC)

 Already done M.Bitton (talk) 18:38, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

Template Disputed

This article is highly debated and disputed and the template Disputed should be present, without any doubt. MiltenR (talk) 22:19, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Recent Genetic Studies of Bulgars Reveal That They are not ethnically Turkic

Source: https://www.britannica.com/topic/Bulgar Source 2: https://web.archive.org/web/20201129054031/https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/194728109.pdf

"Although many scholars, including linguists, had posited that the Bulgars were derived from a Turkic tribe of Central Asia (perhaps with Iranian elements), modern genetic research points to an affiliation with western Eurasian and European populations."

Redact From: The Bulgars (also Bulghars, Bulgari, Bolgars, Bolghars, Bolgari, Proto-Bulgarians) were Turkic semi-nomadic warrior tribes that flourished in the Pontic–Caspian steppe and the Volga region during the 5th-7th century. They became known as nomadic equestrians in the Volga-Ural region, but some researchers believe that their ethnic roots can be traced to Central Asia.

Redact To: The Bulgars (also Bulghars, Bulgari, Bolgars, Bolghars, Bolgari, Proto-Bulgarians) were western Eurasian semi-nomadic warrior tribes that flourished in the Pontic–Caspian steppe and the Volga region during the 5th-7th century. They became known as nomadic equestrians in the Volga-Ural region. Scholars used to believe that their ethnic roots were traced to Turkic tribes and Central Asia until modern genetic studies revealed their affiliation with European populations. Mitko28 (talk) 12:08, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

This is a preprint of one genetic study. It does not wholly uproot the existing cited sources on its own. Remsense诉 13:41, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

It does according to Encyclopedia Britannica 84.40.88.113 (talk) 18:26, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

We prefer to cite secondary sources above tertiary sources on Wikipedia. Remsense诉 18:39, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

I listed more published scientific papers in my reply to this thread. 84.40.88.113 (talk) 18:49, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Here are more scientific papers that confirm the non-Tukic ancestry of Bulgars:

[1]https://www.academia.edu/1262548/Genetic_Research_on_the_Origin_of_Bulgarians_and_their_Relations_with_other_Nations_Y_Y_Shopov_Avant_garde_Research_of_Ancient_Bulgarians_v_1_2_pp_3_47_2007_

[2]https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056779

[3]https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(16)00087-7?_returnURL=https%3A%2F%2Flinkinghub.elsevier.com%2Fretrieve%2Fpii%2FS0960982216000877%3Fshowall%3Dtrue

[4]https://www.unifi.it/vp-10708-il-mistero-del-popolamento-dell-europa.html 84.40.88.113 (talk) 18:45, 1 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 April 2024

This photo in language is unrelated and mistakenly put I believe. There is nothing written on it also.

2A02:FF0:3316:B630:58D7:7CBC:9A1E:E8F5 (talk) 22:04, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

 Done I've removed it as irrelevant. According to the Commons file description it's an image of a Chuvash woman, and the Chuvash people claim to be descended from the Bulgars, but in any case it's not a useful illustration for the Language section. Liu1126 (talk) 22:47, 3 April 2024 (UTC)

@Liu1126: this is not some far fetched theory tho. Chuvash is the descendant of Volga Bulgar language. Beshogur (talk) 13:21, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

I'm not familiar enough with the field to make a sound judgment on that, nonetheless I don't think this image is as useful an illustration for the section as, for example, the current image of the Chatalar Inscription. It might fit better in other sections like History or Legacy. Liu1126 (talk) 14:51, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 July 2024

"According to several historical sources, including Theophylact Ohridski and Mavro Orbini, Bulgarians are by origin European moesians. In the life of St. Clement Ohridski it is said: 'Because they, Bulgarians, are by origin European moesians, which the people now due to a small change in names (Theophylact of Ohrid, Life of Clement of Ohrid) in his book "The Kingdom of the Slavs" also notes this origin of the Bulgarian people

Sources:

Theophylact of Ohrid, Life of Clement of Ohrid

. Mauro Orbini, 'Il regno de gli Slavi' ('The Kingdom of the Slavs') Georgi72990 (talk) 23:29, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Remsense诉 01:28, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, to potentially save another round: this will not suffice for sourcing if you want to make this claim in our own voice: we use modern secondary sources, not historical primary sources. Remsense诉 01:32, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

In the short biography of St. Clement of Ohrid [Legenda Ochridica] the author – the Archibishop of Ohrid Dimitri Homatian had said the following:

(cannot upload a shot of the quote in greek unfortunately)

The great father of us and a light of Bulgaria was from the nation of the European Moesians which nation is usually known as Bulgarians. They were deported in the old days, by the military force of Alexander, from the located near Bruce (Bursa?), Olympus to the North Ocean and the Dead Sea, and after much time, with a fierce army, they crossed the Danube and seized all neighboring areas: Dalmatia and Pannonia, Thrace and Illyricum, and much of Macedonia and Thessaly. Thatisme666 (talk) 20:00, 31 August 2024 (UTC)