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Talk:Casimir Pulaski/GA1

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GA Review

[edit]

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Reviewer: Magicpiano (talk · contribs) 02:11, 12 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I'll bite. Fair warning: I see a lot of issues (which may not be fixable in a conventional review period), but I'll try to cover them and give time to address them. Magic♪piano 02:11, 12 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing and prose
  • While all of the sources consulted appear to biographic, it would be good to include sources that are specific to the campaigns CP was involved in. They may give a different assessment of his contributions (especially if the biographers used are prone to hagiography, something I have not investigated.)
    • It's a good idea, through I think this would be going beyond what's required for a GA article. For many topics there are possible sources to add, but if the article seems comprehensive to the point we cannot point out to a specific fact that needs more expansion, I think we should leave this until such a time that somebody can say "issue x is not covered well, see Smith XXXX and expand based on that." --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 19:40, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Appletons language survives, and needs to be eliminated. It is stilted and archaic, something that is especially apparent when juxtaposed with modern sentences.
  • The article needs more thorough copyediting; there is much evidence that prose was written by editors whose first language is not English (missing or incorrect articles and helping verbs are my diagnostic for this).
  • There is a general lack of causal connections between events. We almost never learn why CP goes where he goes (is he ordered, does he decide, is he forced by events; if he decided, why does he go to place A instead of B). This is important given that he is described as a "loose cannon"; which events gave him that reputation, and what did he do in them that led to it? In the detailed comments below, I ask questions about specific events that are illustrative of this problem, but the same sorts of questions are often applicable to any event being described here.
    • That's a valid point; sadly, I have exhausted the sources I had. For the most part, any expansion would require going beyond - which I am fine with, but I am not certain if this is something needed for GA level (A/FA, sure). --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 19:40, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • I think at GA it needs to be clear what the major events and actions are that established his reputation. These events should have sufficient context to explain how that reputation was established, and to explain things like the "loose cannon" description, and what it was about Jasna Gora that brought him renown. At A/FA I would object if this was not done more comprehensively. Magic♪piano 00:23, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll also briefly note an annoyance that has to do with Polish geography. I strongly suspect the typical reader of this article will be ignorant of detailed Polish geography needed to understand the scope of CP's activities in the Bar Confederation. You really ought to place File:Bar Confederation 1768-1772.PNG here, and also provide basic text indicating things like the relationship between Czestochowa and Jasna Gora, and the general area of of the Confederation's operations (near the Austrian border, say). These things are not hard to do; when you don't do them, users end up clicking through many links just to find out how these places are related and where they are relative to more widely recognizable geography. (I'm not sure this is a show-stopping issue here, but it's a nontrivial readability problem.) Magic♪piano 00:23, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
In Poland
  • Who is Poniatowski? (never linked, is this the later-mentioned king?)
  • Polish military titles and units ought to be explained in rough English equivalents (or size of command given)
  • Example questions: why is he in Jasna Góra to begin with? Why did he go to Lublin afterward? what is the motivation in scheming to kidnap the king? These sorts of things are especially important to cover for major events that CP is best known for.
    • I guess I was not correct above; PSB does go into more details on occasion - I am just not sure how to work all of them in; to be honest - I summarized a lot of info from PSB, probably only 25% of the details it mentions I cover here (I consider that level of detail sufficient for GA; don't get me wrong - I'd like to see all of that detail and more added to the article one day, I just didn't feel like doing that for a GA level of comprehensiveness). But the details I omit are for the most part information on smaller locals, exact paths / regions he fought in, some dates, and such. For Jasna Gora - we are not given a reason. PSB just says "next, he moved to JG and capture it", why - it doesn't explain (one can assume he thought it was a good idea at the time, but stating so in the article would be ORish). My three sentences in the article summarize half a page of the PSB entry (probably 1 book page worth of info). For Lublin, it mentions that the raid there was planned by him and another commander, again, we are not told why. If I was translating all info from PSB, I'd add 3-4 more sentences saying what he did near Lublin. And so on. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 19:40, 21 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • This is one of the problems of relying heavily on biographical dictionaries -- I find the ones I refer to (American and British for the most part) often don't tell us why things happen, even in longer entries. It's quite frustrating. Magic♪piano 00:23, 24 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Thus he spent the desolate year 1775 in France, with six weeks at the turn of the year, imprisoned for debts, until his allies gathered enough funds to arrange for his release." is hopelessly archaic and needs to be rewritten.
In the United States
Formatting, layout, images

I am open to suggestions on how to proceed. I can hold the review open, but I think there is a significant amount of work to do. I would offer to help (at least with the American materials and the prose), but I'm actually not overly familiar with most of the events Pulaski was in, and it would entail some research. I'd also have to close the review. Magic♪piano 16:17, 13 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Noted. I'll try to respond in detail and address the issues round Thur/Fri, hopefully. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 21:37, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I see this was closed as a fail. Can the reviewer give the rationale and summarize the issues that were not resolved? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 16:17, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly; the reasons for failure would be criteria 1 and 3. The main issue is this (quoting myself above):
  • I think at GA it needs to be clear what the major events and actions are that established his reputation. These events should have sufficient context to explain how that reputation was established, and to explain things like the "loose cannon" description, and what it was about Jasna Gora that brought him renown. At A/FA I would object if this was not done more comprehensively.
Merely stating that you've exhausted the sources available to you is insufficient; if you don't have access to sources that answer these sorts of questions then you need to recruit someone who does, to help you. (I find it hard to believe sources don't exist to answer questions of this sort about a figure of his stature, given the existence of book-length biographies. I would imagine histories that detail the Bar Confederation uprising would also shed light on some of the "why" questions I posed.)
Other outstanding issues:
  • I mentioned the need for copyediting.
  • The "Warren Tavern" business was never expanded, fixed, or removed.
  • The incorrect linking of Siege of Charleston (which CP did not participate in) was not fixed, and his role in what happened at Charleston in 1779 (which added to his popularity, even if it did nothing of much strategic value) is not elaborated. (Given that I worked on Battle of Stono Ferry a while back, I may be able to fill this in.)
After you stated that you would not be making any further changes, I assumed (after waiting a week) that these issues would remain unresolved, and consequently closed the review. Magic♪piano 19:09, 7 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]