Talk:Casualties of the Israel–Hamas war

Section entitled Israel Should be expanded

I came to this article looking for information on IDF casualties in the ground operation in Gaza. This information should be added along with information on casualties of attacks on civilians in Israel. I'm not able to do the edit due to restrictions on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Droytenberg (talk • contribs) 16:15, 12 September 2024 (UTC)

Update

GHM has managed to list 34,344 Palestinians killed by Israeli attacks in the territory, publishing a list of names, ages, gender and ID numbers that cover more than 80% of Palestinians killed in the war so far.

The remaining 7,613 people included in its death toll, which is now above 41,000, are Palestinians whose bodies have been received by hospitals and morgues, but whose identities have not yet been confirmed. Emma Graham-Harrison, Gaza publishes identities of 34,344 Palestinians killed in war with Israel The Guardian 17 September 2024 Nishidani (talk) 20:22, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Claims of "Highest Civilian ratio" are flatly false, as given even by the wikipedia page on the subject--specific suggestion: remove any superlative claims, and link to academic scholarly sources on historical ratios of civilian casualties

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualty_ratio

Furthermore, the earlier section claims, citing an editorial, that indirect deaths could be up to 120,000-200,000---aside from being flatly false and ridiculous, this claim is based on an anlysis citing a letter to the lancet

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(24)01169-3/fulltext

which cites a UN report, that argues indirect to direct casualty rates are 4:1 to 16:1

https://www.refworld.org/reference/research/gds/2008/en/64390

In other words, THE VERY BASIS FOR THE CLAIM IS CONTRADICTED BY EVIDENCE EARLIER ADDUCED FOR IT.

IF Israel has the ratio it does, as can be inferred from *otherwise typical* ratios in other wars, it can't be unprecedented for then having a reported ratio less than this !

Furthermore, the UN claims that 90% of deaths in war are civilians!

https://press.un.org/en/2022/sc14904.doc.htm

Research linked to on the wikiedpai page for indirect casualty ratios

As well as https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8581199/

https://doi.org/10.1146/annurev-soc-071913-043416

https://ourworldindata.org/war-and-peace

https://education.cfr.org/learn/reading/civilian-consequences-conflict

https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians

Cited on this page is the Gaza & Hamas claim that 20% of Hamas fighters have been killed (a number representing 7000-8000 people), and that 20% of deaths are Hamas.

Combined with other claims about deaths of women, children and elderly, this would require less than 10% of casualties to be adult males * not in Hamas*, and either that means 100% of Hamas males above 18 are in Hamas (blatantly false), or that Israel is going out of its way to reduce its mle targets by 80% (nonsensical claim), unless, of course, Gaza health ministry claims (10,000 of which are not confirmed, and a further 10,000 are inferred from media reports, themselves inferred from Ministry claims, creating circular verification).

What's more, daily casualty rates have fallen 75% according to both GHM and UN statistics! (20,00 in first 1.5 months, 15,000 in 4.5 months, 5,000 in 4.5 months--see UN impact report for Gaza 10/28/24).

• Specific Edit 1:*

Thus, ALL superlative claims should be removed, especially those inconsistent with other wikipedia pages, which are internally inconsistent, which contradict their own claims and which are implausible.

These include claims that they are killing civilians at historically unprecedented rates--no data bears that out wars used to have a 1:1 to 1:2 ratio, then by the 20th century this rose to 1:3 to 1:4 and in the 90s and 00s rose to 1:5 to 1:8--a 1:3 - 1:2 ratio, which matches UN, Hamas, and IDF data, is in fact, quite common.

• Specific Edit 2*

Claims implying absurdities, such as that 10% of Gaza's population would have died in under 11 months without Hamas or the UN saying so--as the claim of 200,000 dead implies--should be outright removed.

In addition, if included, the basis and citation should be the Lancet letter, not the Guardian editorial that cites it, and it should be made clear that their claims are NOT a peer reviewed article, but a letter to the editor further based on a selective UN report

• Specific Edit 3*

Contradictory claims should be removed,

If a ratio of 1:3 is unprecedented

It cannot also be the case that, there are 200,000 potential dead, based on a historical norm of ratios of 1:4 to 1:16

and

It cannot also be the case that 20% of Hamas fighters have been killed (which would be 8000/41,000 Palestinian dead), which would imply a 4:1 ratio *AT MAXIMUM* and *only if Israel killed no further adult males*--indeed, the ratios mentioned are based on the casualty figures, less the Hamas reported fighters, less the 10,000 or so people who are missing, and not proven dead. This is according to the Gaza health ministry, not Israeli data, etc.. Since these claim further that 60-70% of these dead are women, children, and elderly, this could be .6-.7 * 25,000, or 15,000-17,500 of the 41,000 which are 36%to 42% of casualties--again, this is what the LINKED SOURCES demonstrate.

• specific Edit 4*

Claims about historical and comparative cases should cite scholarly, peer reviewed research or be removed

• Specific Edit 5*

Remove editorializing, or editorializing through citation/quotation, and remove speculation by third parties, and just link to the primary sources, such as the UN impact reports. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Amilcontentanalysis (talk • contribs) 11:54, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

The 'specific edits' are nowhere near being specific, so no we can't do that. Also I found it quite difficult to figure out exactly what problem you were addressing, it is really worthwhile trying to make things easy for others, many more people read what's written than write it. Please also when adding a new topic to a talk page click 'Add topic' at the top to put the new topic at the bottom rather than somewhere in the middle and sign your contribution at the end with ~~~~ NadVolum (talk) 12:25, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Deaths from 'natural' causes

[https://www.qna.org.qa/en/News-Area/News/2024-09/12/0074-palestinian-government-report-number-of-natural-deaths-in-gaza-increased-by-more-than-six-times-due-to%C2%A0-israeli-aggression. Six times greater natural deaths is worth noting I believe - As far as I can make out this would mean another 50,000 'natural' deaths as the natural death rate is 3.8 per 1000 because the population iss very young. Is this what it means? NadVolum (talk) 11:56, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 23 September 2024

Change Israel Hamas war to Palestinian genocide 2601:5CC:4101:1B90:A8D7:8E08:1648:1012 (talk) 22:33, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. Shadow311 (talk) 23:39, 23 September 2024 (UTC)