Talk:Gospel/Archive 7

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Robyn Faith Walsh #2

I first heard of Robyn Faith Walsh on Reddit earlier in the year. From what it looked like, most serious scholars appear to take her work seriously (Including Bart Ehrman). The multiple reviews written means that it meets WP:BKCRIT and WP:NB. I was stunned to find that no mention of her work appeared on Wikipedia when I last checked despite her being so prolific these past couple years. Heck, the book itself doesn't even have an article. There is no question in my mind that this book is not a WP:FRINGE take. Scorpions1325 (talk) 00:01, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I would take this to WP:FTN just to be safe. I have no reason to defend her views. Scorpions1325 (talk) 00:09, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

That the book meets the standards for a notable book does not mean it should also be included in an overview-article; see WP:ONUS. Apart from reviews, there is not a single reference to it in scholarly publicatiins. And "Ehrman appears" is useless here; where does he do that? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:37, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

This is what I was referring to. It is at around the 18:00 mark. It does appear that the person interviewing him might not be a reliable source of information though. If the book legitimately does not appear in any other scholarly publications, I stand corrected. I just find it hard to believe that such a popular book among intellectuals wouldn't even have a rebuttal published. Scorpions1325 (talk) 04:44, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Bart Ehrman, Remembering Columbus, remembering Christ, may 7, 2023: "I’m not convinced at all — but it’s a terrific book and she’s a fine scholar. (I think it’s very hard to think of the Gospel authors as writing for elites, but I’m open to the idea)." Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:46, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Lol. I guess I do stand corrected. I don't know how I didn't find that myself. I guess I don't have anything more to contribute to this discussion as my knowledge of mainstream bible scholarship is pretty spotty. Scorpions1325 (talk) 04:50, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Writing an article about the book may be a good idea anyway, given the attention it has received. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 04:53, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

I can take up that task. I already have a dozen tabs on the book open so I probably can manage it the best from the start. Once I have it up and running, I'll tag you two on its talk. Thanks ~ Pbritti (talk) 05:02, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

Review by Matthias Becker:

• "Die These, es habe im 1. Jahrhundert zwar „Jesus people“ (133), aber keine kohäsiven christlichen Gruppen gegeben, ist haltlos"
• "W. ist darin zuzustimmen, dass die Exegese sich selbst viel zu lange durch Textfragmentierung und Spekulationen über Schichten, Überlieferungs(vor)stufen und Gemeindebildungen den Blick auf die Literarizität der Evv. verstellt hat. Selten hat ein Buch mit einer solchen Vehemenz dazu aufgerufen, die Evv. als kunstvolle Literatur und die Evangelisten als literarisch gebildete Schriftsteller im Kontext der griechisch-römischen Kultur ernst zu nehmen."

In English:

• the idea that, in the 1st century, there were Jesus-people, but no cohesive Chtistian groups, is untenable;
• Walsh has a point that the text-cr itical analysis has lost sight of the literary value of the gospels. She makes a worthfull call to view the gospels as artfully crafted literature, and to see them in the context of Greek-Roman culture.

That, in a nutshell, may be the scholarly view: she's a serious scholar, not a fringe-author; her view on the origins of the gospels is untenable; but viewing the gospels as art, and contextualizing them in Greek-Roman art, is a good idea. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:26, 13 November 2023 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan: Sorry for not responding more thoroughly the last couple days–I happily had family in town. In any case, I thought I should mention that I have found some fairly substantive references to the Walsh text in recent academic literature outside of reviews. Citations found using CUP's own website and accessed mostly through the Wikipedia Library:

• Trax, Kenneth (January 2023). "Happy Reading: Textual Self-Consciousness and Human Flourishing in the Macarisms of Lk 11.28, Gos. Thom. 79.2, and Rev. 1.3". Journal for the Study of the New Testament. 45 (3). Cites Walsh's book to claim "we should not posit discrete reading communities centered on different Christian documents".
• Eberhart, Zechariah Preston (August 2023). "Shifting Gears or Splitting Hairs? Performance Criticism's Object of Study". Religion. Uses Walsh's book as an example of modern alternative scholarship supporting elite authorship of the Gospels (comes with the baggage associated with all MDPI literature).
• Hansen, Christopher M. (2022). "Re-examining the Pre-Christian Jesus". Journal of Early Christian History. 12. Cites Walsh to demonstrate that some modern scholarship now finds a greater number of syncretic elements in early Christian writings, lending added credence to those in the mythological Jesus camp. Hansen stops short of directly claiming that Walsh argues the mythological Jesus thesis. (My reading of Walsh, even after reading the glowing review by the noted FRINGE Carrier, is that Walsh is not making a definitive statement on this.)

There is no doubt in my mind that Walsh's theories are kinda "out there", so to speak, but they're being discussed and are repeatedly referenced to reflect an existing strand of modern scholarship. I feel like these references (and the other four that I found but didn't have time to read) provide a strong basis towards inclusion of the Walsh material with appropriate inline attribution. I apologize if pinging you repeatedly is annoying. I don't know if you're watching this, but let me know if that's the case. ~ Pbritti (talk) 00:17, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Pinging is okay, and obviously Google Scholar needs an update on it's algorhytms; outstanding job you've done, in the best of the Wiki-spirit! Eberhart seems most relevant, with your comment "an example of modern alternative scholarship supporting elite authorship of the gospels." There are other instances of such scholarship? Otherwise, it would still be a single voice against a long-standing consensus; any mention of Walsh would easily give her thesis too much weight. Marc Goodacre's comment should be a warning-sign: "The Origins of Early Christian Literature turns a century of New Testament scholarship on its head." Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:04, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan: Excellent! I'll get back to you Soon™ on the particular phrasing we could use for this article. I have some really, really long hours coming up, but some of them will be "hurrying up and waiting" and I may get a chance to do some real editing work. I'm almost done with the draft for the book article, which can be found here. Just fleshing out the critical reception section and will add a fair-use image of the cover. ~ Pbritti (talk) 05:13, 14 November 2023 (UTC)

Checking Eberhart; they mention Walsh in a note; that's not exactly 'establishing notewothiness'... Eberhart writes:

More recently, however, the notion that the gospel authors are writing for a “more common” audience has been challenged. For an argument in favor of the Gospels as products by and for the literary for elite, see Walsh (2020).

Just a mentio, not an argument pro or contra. But, also, feeding curiosity on Walsh thesis: the gospels are not only written by an elite (makes sense), but also for an elite. Looking forward to your article. Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk! 05:29, 14 November 2023 (UTC)