Talk:Mulucha

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Inconsistent dates

the article mentions "which was used as a boundary between the Mauri and Massaesyli," this describes the tribal groups that used to live in this region.

the lines establishing the habitation of these tribes were drawn a long time before Strabo lived, in the time of Syphax around 250 BC and before the Mulucha seperated the Mauri from the Massasyli already, by the time Bocchus was in power the lines were already drawn.

"the line drawn for the subjects of Bocchus and Jugurtha" Bocchus is the father in law of Jugurtha and only shared only about 4 years of Rule of Mauretania next to Numidia when Jugurtha Became king of Numidia. and that was more than 100 years after the lines were already drawn in the Mulucha, that is why in my last edit I chose Syphax and Bokkar because the lines are drawn clearly in that time period.

concerning the control of the region on the mulucha river the following statement is well sourced but was probably accidentally deleted, it is important the reinstate it as it describes a time when Bokkar and the Mauri were subjects of Numidia and therefore their control went beyond the Mulucha : "After the unification of Numidia in 202 BC by Massinissa the control over the Mulucha was entirely under Numidian hands, as Massinissa had vassalized the king of the Mauri Bokkar I, Numidian control reached the Atlantic ocean to the west.^[1]^[2]^[3]".

can you also please site a good source for the following statement "referred to as the line drawn for the subjects of Bocchus and Jugurtha as used by Strabo". Strabo describes Syphax's kingdom seperating the Mauri by Mulucha clearly. I have yet to encounter Strabo speak the same about Jugurtha and Bocchus.

Clausewitez (talk) 20:43, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, the very first mention "which was used as a boundary between the Mauri and Massaesyli," and "the line drawn for the subjects of Bocchus and Jugurtha" and "referred to as the line drawn for the subjects of Bocchus and Jugurtha as used by Strabo". All come from the first source [1]

Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography (1854)

William Smith, LLD, Ed.

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0064:entry=mulucha-geo

as for the 3 sources you mentioned about Numidian control past the Mulucha river which came in the

Numidia

page aswell under sources [17][18][19]. I changed it and put it in a seperated category summarized to reflect the consensus at this time as given in the

Numidia

page aswell. If consensus there on this topic can be clearly established about Numidian territory (as i can see the source can provide evidence that Syphax had a more extensive rule) we can implement it here aswell. There Bokkar is mentioned as a vassal but no clarity in if his rule was autonomous / directly controlled etc. if he as a vassal controlled all of the Mauri at the time untill the atlantic or not. So i did it this way we do not have 2 wikis which are connected by mention having 2 seperate claims on Numidian territory.

Imteghren (talk) 21:17, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I just rechecked the Numidia article and saw that the control to the atlantic is mentioned but on another source later on [27] which wasnt added initially. By that effect i fixed some of the wording of the article to mention Bokkar and Numidia ruling past the Mulucha river to the atlantic in the Syphax and Massinisa paragraph Imteghren (talk) 21:46, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for clarification. I have no intention of countering any of your contributions I just want to correct some misconceptions and improve your source quality.

the source you stated is says the following :

MULUCHA a river of Mauretania, which Sallust (Sal. Jug. 92, 110), Mela (1.5. §§ 1, 5), and Pliny (5.2) assign as the boundary between the Mauri and Massaesyli, or the subjects of Bocchus and Jugurtha. POINT (end of idea). here, Dictionary of Greek and Roman Geography (1854) mentions that it is Pliny that says this idea not Strabo. however neither Pliny nor Strabo quote Bocchus, Bocchus is only mentioned by Sallust. in the following text : Not far from the river Mulucha, which divided the kingdoms of Jugurtha and Bocchus

Strabo also talks of The Mulucha seperating the Mauri from the Massaesyli As Strabo (xvii. pp. 827, 829) makes the MOLOCATH (Μολοχάθ, Μολαχάθ, Ptol. 4.1.7) serve the same purpose, there can be no doubt that they are one and the same river. The MALVA (Μαλούα, Ptol. l.c.) of Pliny (l.c.)

in conclusion: the divide between where Mauri live and where Massaessyli (Numidians) live are mentioned by Sallust, Pliny and Strabo. but Bocchus is only mentioned by one author, My suggestion here to in the lead of the article we just mention that the Mulucha seperates the Massaessyli from the Mauri but we do not mention rulers because if we want to mention the rulers then the divide had already preexisted well before these rulers and this describes how old the populations of Mauri and Massaessyli lived next to each other in the region it was not such a new thing.

From the sources mentionned Bokkar is described as the Lieutanent of Syphax as well as the vassal of Massinissa. for Syphax this appears to be Massaesyl direct control over Tangiers as Bokkar was a Military Chieftain who answered directly to Syphax. for Massinissa it simply mentions vassalage with Bokkar now answering to Massinissa so the control was direct. Autonomy was given to Mauretania to establish a royal line and a kingdom was established (Ruled by Baga in 225 BC).

here concerning this idea, I want to emphasize that the seperation between Numidians and Mauri was not forever, as the vassalage of Bokkar allowed Numidian and Mauri royal bloodlines to mix and form rulers that had inherited lands from each territory, the Mulucha which was a river seperating two peoples did not seperate Numidians and Mauri during the vassalage of Bokkar and it also did not seperate them during the rule of Bocchus and Juba and so on. here the seperation ends in certain periods in history. Clausewitez (talk) 22:09, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I see where your coming from in regards to the mention. As for Bokkar i already fixed his mention of vassalage and the Numidian extend to the Atlantic. Its that the prior source for it was not added so i added that source aswell. I agree that in regards to the leaving out the mention of the rulers in the divide of the river and keep it at the 2 tribes which extend the rulers. As for the 1st source that was a misread on my end. Let us fix that aswell Imteghren (talk) 22:19, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I only skimmed through it, but from what I can tell, there is a lot of information that is tangential to the subject. M.Bitton (talk) 23:06, 3 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

^ Villes et tribus du Maroc: documents et renseignements, Volume 7 Morocco. Direction des affaires indigènes: “Les rois indigènes . Bokkar . Au début du troisième siècle avant JésusChrist , le Maroc obéissait à Bokkar , qui résidait à Tanger , capitale du royaume , et qui était un lieutenant du roi de Numidie Syphax. En 202 avant Jésus - Christ , après la capture de Syphax , il devint le vassal de Massinissa” H. Champion
^ Histoire du Maroc Coissac de Chavrebière Payot: “ La guerre tourna à l'avantage de Massinissa , allié des Romains . Syphax fut fait prisonnier ( 202 ) et Bokkar devint le vassal du vainqueur . « Massinissa , dit St. Gsell , rêvà d'être pour la civilisation punique ce que le Macédonien...”
^ Le Maroc Prosper Ricard Hachette: “En 202 avant J.-C. , elle était la résidence , disent les Anciens , de Bokkar , roi du Maroc , lieutenant de Syphax le numide , vassal de Massinissa . En 105 avant J.-C. , Bokkus [ er , allié de Sylla , livre aux Romains son gendre”

[:02-1] Villes et tribus du Maroc: documents et renseignements, Volume 7 Morocco. Direction des affaires indigènes: “Les rois indigènes . Bokkar . Au début du troisième siècle avant JésusChrist , le Maroc obéissait à Bokkar , qui résidait à Tanger , capitale du royaume , et qui était un lieutenant du roi de Numidie Syphax. En 202 avant Jésus - Christ , après la capture de Syphax , il devint le vassal de Massinissa” H. Champion

[:1-2] Histoire du Maroc Coissac de Chavrebière Payot: “ La guerre tourna à l'avantage de Massinissa , allié des Romains . Syphax fut fait prisonnier ( 202 ) et Bokkar devint le vassal du vainqueur . « Massinissa , dit St. Gsell , rêvà d'être pour la civilisation punique ce que le Macédonien...”

[:2-3] Le Maroc Prosper Ricard Hachette: “En 202 avant J.-C. , elle était la résidence , disent les Anciens , de Bokkar , roi du Maroc , lieutenant de Syphax le numide , vassal de Massinissa . En 105 avant J.-C. , Bokkus [ er , allié de Sylla , livre aux Romains son gendre”

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