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Talk:Portrait of a Man (Self Portrait?)

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Proposed rename

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I propose this article is moved to Portrait of a Man (Van Eyck). The current title with a question-mark is based on the NG catalogue qualification rather than the formal painting title. Fæ (talk) 14:00, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

There are several "Portrait of a Man (Van Eyck)"s (including one hanging right next to this), but only one generally thought to be a self-portrait. This is also exactly what the label in the gallery says, so I don't know where the distinction between a "formal painting title" and a catalogue one comes from. Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point, though I suggest we consider any alternatives (such as just dropping the question mark) as the question-mark is a headache for links from other websites and invariably ends up as a hex code to avoid URL errors. Fæ (talk) 14:30, 24 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that dropping the question mark after the title is a better choice, also the brackets, which just make this title informal. We can think about putting those in the introduction in the article. The name that National Gallery gives to the artwork also have a perspective thinking of attracting viewer. Following that "official" name is not a bad idea but it indeed makes this article weird, at least at the first sight.HillmanHan (talk) 00:40, 4 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]


File:Jan van Eyck 091.jpg Nominated for speedy Deletion

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Appearances In Pop Culture

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I remember seeing this painting used as an album cover back in the 1990s. Anyone else remember it? The Sanity Inspector (talk) 01:27, 30 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I found some mention of an association with Van Eyck for Carmina Burana (album) (Ray Manzarek, 1983), Definitely Maybe (Oasis, 1994), and Insomniac (Green Day album) (1995). But those seem to be referencing the Arnolfini portrait rather than this painting. I'm a bit surprised not to find more, since Van Eyck produced visually interesting work and the copyright rights are long expired. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:40, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 23 September 2024

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Portrait of a Man (Self Portrait?) → Portrait of a Man in a Red Turban – or Man in a Red Turban or Portrait of a Man in a Turban (reverting to the title before an undiscussed move in 2007‎ suggesting a right to naming deriving from ownership) or Man in a Turban, or at least Portrait of a Man (possible self-portrait) or Portrait of a Man (Van Eyck possible self-portrait). There are several problems in the current title. One is that the disambiguator appears to be a redundant alternative title rather than a type classification or context clarifier. Another is the question mark indicating a lack of confidence about whether the painting's title should be "Self Portrait" or not (or whether the painting fits into the self-portraiture category or not). We shouldn't be using question marks this way. The use of title case and the lack of a hyphen in "Self Portrait" also seem questionable. See also the previous discussion of the title from 2011–2017 on the article talk page. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:11, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support. The current title is silly. Zacwill (talk) 21:00, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Note that although, as far as I know, this is the only painting commonly known as Portrait of a Man in a Red Turban, the turban is in fact a chaperone chaperon, and Van Eyck painted another portrait of a man in a somewhat similar looking red chaperone chaperon that is known as Portrait of Giovanni di Nicolao Arnolfini. He also painted another painting sometimes called simply Portrait of a Man (in which the subject is also wearing a chaperone chaperon, although not a red one), which has a Wikipedia article devoted to it that is called Léal Souvenir. Note also that there is no clear evidence that the painting is a self-portrait – that is just the impression that some people have gotten by looking at the painting and trying to interpret the ambiguous text painted on its frame. As far as I know, there are no other paintings that used Van Eyck as the subject, no preserved descriptions of what he looked like, and no writings by those who knew him who said that he was the subject or even that he had painted any portrait of himself. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:39, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose For the moment, the National Gallery still uses this, and we should follow them. Where do these made-up titles come from? We should not be inventing titles. Along with others, they may well be used in various sources, but there is no WP:COMMONNAME. Please alert the VA project. It's "chaperon" - chaperone is something else. Almost all RS think it is probably a self-portrait; dobn't let's get into OR tangles on that. Johnbod (talk) 23:13, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry about the spelling error. I don't think any of the suggested article titles are "made-up titles" – as far as I know, they come from sources (except for parenthesized disambiguation terms, which are just context or category type descriptions that Wikipedia typically does not feel obliged to find verbatim in sources). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 23:26, 23 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Johnbod. We should follow the sources, i.e National Gallery. Of the sources I have easily at hand Craig Harbison includes the (Self Portrait?) and Till-Holger Borchert also includes (Self Portrait?), though he does mention a turban but not the color. Will try to check other sources & add relevant page numbers when possible, but as JB mentions, there isn't a common name. What does seem to be common is that scholars believe it's a self portrait but it's an old painting and because there are no other images of Jan van Eyck there's no way of knowing - hence the question mark. Personally am opposed to confusing with the Léal Souvenir or the Arnolfini portrait. Yes, of course he painted men wearing chaperons - that was the fashion of his period. Note that technically these are not titles but identifiers for scholars, collectors, etc. Victoria (tk) 02:09, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the comment that "these are not titles", the word "title" in this discussion refers primarily to the title of a Wikipedia article, not the concept of a title of a painting. Although these would often be the same, a Wikipedia article may, for example, contain a disambiguation term in parentheses that is not intended to be considered part of the title of the work discussed in the article. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 17:36, 24 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which is why the title assigned by the institution that's held the work for almost 200 years is the best. Victoria (tk) 12:59, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The pitfalls of OR: it isn't a frigging turban at all! It's a chaperon, with the dangly bits folded in, presumably to stop getting paint on them (a pice of evidence to support "self-portrait"). Johnbod (talk) 12:02, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The word 'turban' is coming from external sources, not from our own OR; no one is saying it's actually a turban. Unfortunately, we have not found sources calling it "Portrait of a Man in a Red Chaperon with the Dangly Bits Folded In". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 15:13, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Which "external sources"? The article doesn't give any for "turban", except for Smart History in EL, and you haven't given any, which you really need to do to support a move proposal. Also please give the VA project a notice of the proposal. Johnbod (talk) 15:21, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I note that Ham II also referenced a source (Grove Art Online) that says the painting is "traditionally known as the Man in a Red Turban" in a comment below. It's true that I didn't put the effort into identifying specific sources, but I don't think there's any real question about whether 'turban' is found in sources – it clearly is. If preferred, however, a title that doesn't use 'turban' could be something like Portrait of a Man (1433 van Eyck painting). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:02, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Grove's article on van Eyck refers to "the signed and dated portrait of the Man in a Red Chaperon (traditionally known as the Man in a Red Turban, 1433; London, N.G.)." Meanwhile, an article on the website of the Staatliche Museen zu Berlin calls the work we call Portrait of Giovanni di Nicolao Arnolfini "Portrait of a Man in a Red Chaperon (presumed to depict Giovanni Arnolfini)". (But it's "Portrait of a man (from the Arnolfini family?)" on their online catalogue.) So an article title with Red Chaperon/Turban would arguably need disambiguation, e.g., (van Eyck, London). Ham II (talk) 12:35, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    • Good point. I think his headcover was generally referred to as a "turban" up to about WW2, and costume history becoming more developed, since when "chaperon" has gradually taken over. I don't think "turban" is at all acceptable in 2024. Johnbod (talk) 14:53, 25 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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