Talk:Rave/Archive 2

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Archive 1

Archive 2

Buddy Holly?

Previous to it's more modern usage (rave parties, etc) "rave" meant to praise, admire, talk about in an on-and-on fashion. THIS is what Holly was referring to with his song "Rave On". It's nothing to do with acting wildly or partying. Good lord... — Preceding unsigned comment added by MotorCityD (talk • contribs) 16:25, 10 December 2012 (UTC)

RE: Removed Content

I think the removed content by Pontificalibus about the different backgrounds of regions such as North America, Sydney , South America, etc. was usefull...Especially the North America since it had such a large influence coinciding with Europe. Either there should be a history of rave culture article page, or added back to the rave page. -a raver 1/17/2013 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.54.78.182 (talk) 21:32, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

References

Emo

Are raves related to Emo culture? I think of some of the hairstyles and fashion as the same, but it also seems like electronic dance and trance music is a different genre. -- Beland (talk) 15:20, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Trance is a fusion genre of techno, acid house and other electronic styles that emerged in the late 1980s: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trance_music.

In the early years (late 1980s to mid 1990s), rave fashion was influenced by many cultures such as for example hippie culture, punk culture and 1960s and 1970s fashion such as clothes made out of flokati, nylon, neoprene, loon trousers or colored hair. At least since the mid 2000s, some niche techno scenes (Berghain) adopted their style from the Goth subculture. Similarly, the fashion of the Emo culture is as well influenced by gothic and pop punk. This is where I would see the link. --Rio65trio (talk) 23:29, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

First paragraphs - Free Parties not mentioned, and origin stated as 'Chicago'

"Rave culture originated mostly from acid music parties in the mid-to-late 1980s in the Chicago area in the United States.[1] After Chicago house artists began experiencing overseas success, it quickly spread to the United Kingdom, Central Europe, Australia and the rest of the United States.[2][3]"

Ummmmmmmmm...... this is dodgy. There is no way that England can be relegated to the same follower status as 'Central Europe'. Consensus seems to hold that the origin of 80s-90s rave culture was Manchester. The music, the sound system origins and the culture could be said to come from various sources, with various claims from Ibiza to Jamaica.

Also, the first part of this article, the summary definition, misses out a crucial element that made Raves aka Free Parties what they are: they are Free - including their entrance policies. They are nonprofit. They are temporary - held in unlicenced locations. And usually, they are thrown by sound systems.

The more I read on the subject, the more I see some people corrupting its definition. The main example: A rave is not a party that takes place in a regular licensed premises, with alcohol permits, and it is not a party with entrance fees. For a pay-to-enter party that takes place in a regular licensed venue, for profit, please see "Nightclub", as that is its basic definition. A dog is not a cat, and a rave is not a nightclub. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.110.239.227 (talk) 18:18, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

The musical origins clearly were in the Chicago house scene, and you'd be hard-pressed to find any history of the scene that doesn't acknowledge that. British rave culture, however, certainly did not originate in Manchester. Most sources agree that the sequence of events was London DJs visiting Ibiza, and bringing back both the new music and idea of taking MDMA that had started to develop there. This led to a burgeoning new scene in London, that then spread to other cities. Manchester was clearly a regional centre in the north, but then so were Leeds and Sheffield to differing degrees, yet none of them came close to the scale of what was happening in London, either in terms of legal events, or illegal ones.

I'm somewhat surprised at your inference that raves can only take place in unlicensed venues, especially since the origins of the scene were in licensed venues, but events were subsequently displaced to unlicensed venues precisely because the authorities cracked down on them happening in licensed premises. Today, of course, very few unlicensed events take place in comparison to licensed ones, although the scene as a whole has been contracting for a number of years. Saying that raves only happen illicitly in fields in the middle of nowhere is just cultural snobbery. Nick Cooper (talk) 11:12, 23 December 2014 (UTC)

I suggest you read this article as you are misinformed http://www.dummymag.com/Features/the-dummy-guide-to-acid-house rave/acid house was prevalent in Manchester in 1986 and if you read the article and connected articles/those interviewed within it including Terry Farley who DJ'd at Danny Ramplings club Shoom says they were not responsible for introducing it to the UK as for your assertion about the North you clearly are not Northern and attended the raves in the North the previous editor is correct however they moved outdoor because they grew too large for a venue to cope with the growing numbers at event and police pressure own club owners to crack down on drug dealers within the club or face closure the organizers simply up sticks and decided to stage them for free wherever they wanted.--Navops47 (talk) 10:47, 20 October 2016 (UTC)

I would suggest you are very confused about what I was saying above, and in response to what. Acid house was one of the components which led to rave, rather than being synonymous with it. Try reading Andrew Collin's Altered State or Sheryl Garratt's Adventures in Wonderland.

Also, given that I was born in Hull and spent my first 35 years up to 2001 there or in Leeds, your assumption that I am somehow not a northerner is equally mistaken. Nick Cooper (talk) 20:47, 28 April 2017 (UTC)

Tag added for expansion of Florida component

I've added a tag for the expansion of the relevant history in Orlando, Florida re: the Beacham Theater. The Beacham Theater entry has adequate sourcing for the Florida history addition to this article.Johnvr4 (talk) 14:32, 31 July 2016 (UTC)

Proposed merge from rave music to rave

I propose that the article rave music be merged into this rave article. The problem is that "rave is more of an event than a genre", but the existing rave music article assumes it's a genre. The music played at raves varies widely, and cannot be described as having a particular style or genre. House music, techno, jungle and drum and bass are all examples of rave music.

Music journalist Simon Reynolds discusses rave culture at length in his book Energy Flash: A Journey Through Rave Music and Dance Culture. He agrees that many kinds of music were played at raves, and that rave culture was based on dancing ecstatically to electronic dance music while under the influence of drugs, especially MDMA (ecstasy). Always DJ-based, the music could be breakbeat hardcore, house, techno – whatever worked with the drugged dancers to produce "tingly rushes" with "hallucinatory vividness". When Reynolds talks about various successful rave songs or artists, he often sorts them by genre, for instance Altern-8 is a techno duo, Danny Breaks is drum 'n bass, the Prodigy is hardcore early on, the Chemical Brothers is Britpop with breakbeats, SL2 is breakbeat hardcore, etc.

Reynolds writes that rave music was dependent on the breakbeat, the sample, the riff stab, the anthemic chorus, the audience blissed out on ecstasy, but later he writes about hardcore techno that avoids these elements, calling this "rave music purged of cheesy ravey-ness". So Reynolds contradicts himself when he attempt to define rave music as a coherent genre. He even says on page 534 "there's a massive contradiction" running through his book, because the ecstatic dance experience of rave culture was always beyond musical classification. He finds himself on more solid ground when he stays general, writing that the "original ethos of rave" involved a "sonic mishmash" linked to social mixing. So "rave music" is a mix of various genres I think would be best described within the rave article. Binksternet (talk) 15:28, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

This is like saying "rock music is not a genre because there are many different types of rock music—blues rock, gothic, psychedelic, punk, funk, soft"—"rave music" is just a general categorization for a type of electronic, dance-oriented music. That said, there's not much in the way of sources for a rave music article, so I don't have a problem with the merge. But that doesn't require a redefinition of "rave music" as not being a category of music. gentlecollapse6 (talk) 01:40, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

I think it's more like the Wikipedia topic of piano rock which was created five times and deleted five times, existing on Wikipedia for about seven years total. The persistent complaint about the notional topic is that it's just two words that go together – rock music with prominent piano. Similarly, "rave music" is just music played at raves. Binksternet (talk) 08:05, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Does the article Rave music make any sense at all? It just lists all genres of electronic music that are played at raves. This is trivial information and in fact can be expressed by just one single, compact sentence within the article Rave. But the whole content of the article Rave music should certainly not be merged with Rave, as the focus of that article is on Rave culture. Instead, the article Rave music may be incorporated to the still empty section Electronic_dance_music#Genres which is tagged as needing expansion. Rio65trio (talk) 19:06, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

That's a great idea. Quite appropriate because of the expansion needed. Binksternet (talk) 20:15, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

That was a great idea, but now, more than a year on, the new proposed target has greatly expanded and the merge to Electronic_dance_music#Genres no longer looks so attractive. The closest section match is probably to Electronic_dance_music#Dance music in the 1990s, but now the original proposal of simply a truncated section on Rave looks like a better idea. Therefore, support the original proposal. Klbrain (talk) 20:34, 2 October 2018 (UTC)

Merger complete. Klbrain (talk) 21:16, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

Images

Two images from the article, which had no relation to the section where they were placed. They may be included in future sections describing the history of those countries:

Rave party in Salento (August 2009)
Dominator 2014 crowd, which attracts Gabber ravers in the Netherlands.

Rio65trio (talk) 15:48, 28 June 2017 (UTC)

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Etymology of Rave

Guys, I believe the word rave comes from the word for dream in French, please verify and edit. Here's a source: ^[1] 213.127.96.82 (talk) 17:20, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

Geographic origin of the Rave genre

I'm reverting the changes made in good faith by Neki9999 concerning the Belgian contribution to the "rave" music genre. My reasons are that they appear to be an attempt to place Belgium as the birthplace of the "rave" genre, but do not offer any evidence to support this theory. I also am unable to find any references that will support his edits myself. All the evidence points to the "rave" genre originating in the UK, as described in DJ Laurent Garniers autobiography which is referenced here amongst other places. I invite Neki9999 to explain his reason for his proposed changes here to reach a consensus. PeakerPan (talk) 00:30, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@ Neki9999 The source you have provided to support your edit appears to be biased, and contradicts the generally accepted timeline of "rave" as a genre. The promo text of the film itself states: "Now is the time to tell the story that has been widely ignored by ‘serious’ music critics and the mainstream media in general." See WP:Reliability. Please engage in discussion here before continuing your edits, to avoid an edit war. Thank you! PeakerPan (talk) 01:12, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@ Neki9999 my apologies, it appears to be 201.214.251.133 that added the possibly biased source and did the revert. My mistake, I thought it was you that did it. PeakerPan (talk) 01:45, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@ PeakerPan : I consider that if the music section says that Rave Music can be any EDM played at a rave, BUT there was once a genre that was called Rave in the early 90's (UK Breakbeat Hardcore), it's very biased not to include Belgian "Rave Techno" also as a genre that was called like that during the same era (that is a fact). I understand that you don't want to associate the term Rave to a genre or style of EDM, but you are already doing this exception, that i think it's logical and historically accurate, but by the same criteria the Belgian "Rave Techno" style must be included.

As stated by diferent sources, the Hardcore Techno sound that emerged in belgium after New Beat was the pioneer in the use of riff stabs and the use of the sounds like the Hoover and other iconic sounds associated to the "Rave sound" during these years. In fact, the Mentasm sound came from Joey Beltram from Brooklyn, when he signed with belgian producers (decission that wasn't a coincidence, because as Joey Beltram itself states in TSOB documentary, he was trying to emulate New Beat and Belgian EDM sounds). Early acts that adopted this riff stabs style was Quadropohonia, L.A. Style, Channel X, and Fierce Ruling Diva, in the year 1990, before this reached the UK (all this can be traced just checking in music databases like discogs, that are pretty exhaustive and accurate).

It was after this contribution, that the UK scene sampled many of this stabs and added it to the breakbeat hardcore they were doing. This is something that you can check in unbiased data in discogs, and most of the UK records that started using those sounds are from 1991 and onwards. And because of that, both genres shared a lot of sounds, but being partially different scenes, different countries and styles. And is to this kind of sounds that both are associated as "Rave" music.

Why not lump the belgian sound under the "Oldskool Rave" or "Breakbeat Hardcore" umbrella? Well, because it isn't breaks, it hasnt any. It has a 4/4 rhythm. That's why it is "Hardcore Techno" or "Rave Techno", as it was called in many compilations at the time (check discogs, there is a link below).

Sources:

https://www.vice.com/en/article/ez7b4n/the-untold-story-of-joey-beltram-the-techno-titan-behind-the-90s-most-iconic-rave-anthems

https://www.toucanmusic.com/articles/ukhardcore/ (Netlabel)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joey_Beltram

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_beat

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sound_of_Belgium (might be romantic, but it's not biased in terms of facts or timeline).

https://rateyourmusic.com/list/TheScientist/rym-ultimate-box-set-belgian-techno/

https://music.ishkur.com/ (Rave section)

https://standrewsradio.com/belgian-house-the-unsung-hero-of-european-rave-culture/]https://www.electronicbeats.net/a-lesson-on-belgian-new-beat-history-with-peter-van-hoesen/

https://daily.redbullmusicacademy.com/2018/01/new-beat-feature

https://www.discogs.com/es/lists/Rave-Techno-Compilations-Early-Hardcore-Techno-from-90-to-93/950572 (to show there's a lot of evidence that the belgian contribution is relevant, the main acts and artists appears in almost all the records that has the terms "Techno" and "Rave", you can check for yourselves using the filters in the database for the years 1990-1993)

To say that some style of music was called "Rave" during the early 90's, and that it considered both the UK and the Belgian sound, isn't saying that raves are restricted to those two styles . It's just what happened at that time, people called that "Rave music" (in fact the article says that now, but just focusing in the UK).

So, i consider that this must be included at the "Music" section at least in some way. If you disagree to atribute the origins to the belgians (even when the UK sampled the belgians) is something that can be discussed, but totally erasing them from the history of the "Rave" term... that is very very biased. I can agree that this sound isn't very sophisticated and can be cheesey, but that isn't an objective criteria for excluding it.

I know your are trying to have an unbiased article and are discussing this inclussion in good faith, and that's why i'm backing up my claim to include the belgians in some way.

Hope you agree. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Neki9999 (talk • contribs) 02:51, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@ Neki9999 I've moved your response into the original section here to keep the discussion comprehensible, I hope you don't mind. Concerning your points, I completely agree that Belgium should be accurately represented in the Music section, but I don't see anything in the links you've provided (even the ones that are unreliable by Wikipedia standards) that would warrant phrases like "The genre "rave", also known as hardcore by early ravers, emerged first in Belgium", "The UK take on the genre" and "creating a style different from the 4/4 beat belgian rave". Wikipedia articles strive to be neutral and should not be written from the point of view of a person or from a sense of national pride as this often skews the tone. See Wikipedia:Point of view. The way you presented your new additions completely changed the tone of the article to strongly imply that Belgium is the origin point of the "rave" genre, which is debatable and might mislead someone reading it. Should you wish to continue with your edits (I hope you do), please be careful to make it clear in your final text that you are citing the opinion of a (reliable) reference and not your own when you make such statements. See Wikipedia:Point of view. Also, as it seems that you've recently created your account just to edit this article may I suggest that you familiarize yourself with the correct formatting of references (and Wikipedia guidelines in general) before engaging in any serious editing? See Wikipedia:Editing guidelines. I look forward to your future contribution about Belgium to this article and to Wikipedia in general. PeakerPan (talk) 04:00, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@ Neki9999 Just to avoid you future frustration I'd like to bring your attention to the fact that generally speaking, blogs, interviews, and sites like Discogs and even Wikipedia are not considered reliable sources, as they are user-generated content. See WP:Reliability for more info. PeakerPan (talk) 04:07, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

@ Neki9999 It might also be beneficial to read this section WP:NOR to understand the policy of "No original research" before proceeding. I'd also like to add that by reverting your changes my intention was not to erase all references to the Belgian contribution, but rather to preserve the current article from apparent original research. The simplest way is to roll back all the changes until you provide valid references and ensure the text follows the three core content policies No original research, Neutral point of view and Verifiability. I hope this explanation helps you understand why I reverted your changes. PeakerPan (talk) 04:39, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

^ https://www.etymonline.com/word/rave

[1] ttps://www.etymonline.com/word/rave

[1]