User talk:Adam.J.W.C./Archive 1

• Adam.J.W.C. Talk page archive 1

Forts

Hi, Found this interesting article about some cannons at Gregson Park, Hamilton in Newcastle. [1] It would appear that the cannons are from Fort Macquarie. Any news on other forts or WWII items in Sydney? Regards --Newm30 (talk) 22:11, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Can you advise where the palacial bunker was in co-ordinates so I can try to find some info for you? There are a number of forts in Wollongong (Hill60 & two near harbour) will try to give you some links & info. --Newm30 (talk) 23:27, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Flagstaff Hill Fort [2], Wollongong East. Tenders were called for the construction of a battery on this site in 1889. Fifty thousand cubic feet of rock and soil was removed and the construction was built into the hillside. A face brick walling with one door and two window openings is the only element out of the ground. The site includes tunnels leading from the brick entrance to the gun emplacement and two range find positions. The construction was completed in 1891 and a gun was erected and fired the following year. The site was bricked up in 1950. Smiths Hill Fort [3] , Cliff Road, North Wollongong. Drawings for a battery on this site were completed in 1892. Building commenced in 1892 and was completed in 1893. The battery is built into the side of the hill and comprises three gun emplacements and several underground ammunition rooms. Two original guns, 80 pound (36kg) muzzleloaders built in 1872, are still on the site. After being buried under fill in 1947 the site has now been excavated and restored externally. Illowra Battery [4]. I know of other information and will try to create some of the pages as stubs to be filled out later. --Newm30 (talk) 23:51, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Found this article about Georges Heights.[5] --Newm30 (talk) 00:14, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Wollongong Forts

Flagstaff Hill Fort has been created. --Newm30 (talk) 01:02, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Smiths Hill Fort has been created. --Newm30 (talk) 01:35, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Im not sure what categories to add other than Category:Wollongong --Newm30 (talk) 02:15, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, had mental blank. Illowra Battery has been created. --Newm30 (talk) 02:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Site at 34°28′33″S 150°54′50″E is Breakwater Battery. A museum is set up in a building nearby. Owned by Port Kembla Ports and may be of interest.

Drummond Battery appears to be located in around Conistan or Mount Saint Thomas. It was a 9.2in battery. Records indicate that properties at The Avenue Coniston and Ocean Street were resumed due to being too close to Drummond Battery. --Newm30 (talk) 03:36, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Drummond Battery and Breakwater Battery have been created. Regards --Newm30 (talk) 23:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for creating the template. It works well. Regards --Newm30 (talk) 01:05, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Have added co-ordinates to all in template after finally working out how to do it. Regards --Newm30 (talk) 01:28, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Large trench with rooms off. Not big though. --Newm30 (talk) 01:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is the correct location for Illowra Battery. As far as I am aware of, Drummond Battery is still in existence. I use Google Earth as my default. I am plotting WW2 airfields as well, which is a huge task. Regards --Newm30 (talk) 02:02, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Sutherland template

Hi, do you think the Sutherland Shire template looked more professional the way that it was before and should it be reverted . --User:Adam.J.W.C. (talk) 23:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I actually like the Navbox that features Suburbs and Localities in a title box, on the left hand side in blue. It looks neater and takes up less room on the page. If we go with that style it should be adopted for all the suburb templates. J Bar (talk) 02:20, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Bankstown Bunker

I noticed you restored the information on the Bankstown Bunker. I know you created the links to this article for every suburb in the Bankstown area and I because I monitor all the Sydney suburb articles, I noticed a few people have gone through and deleted this info from those articles. They believe that there is no connection to every suburb article and I tend to agree with their point of view. Maybe the link should only stay with the suburbs above the bunker or those that have a direct link. J Bar (talk) 02:37, 26 February 2008 (UTC) okay

Bankstown photo

I've just remembered another issue. Sorry if I come across a bit negative today but I'm just trying to help. I noticed that you replaced a photo with a new version --Image:Council Chambers, Bankstown.jpg--. I know the old photo wasn't that crash hot but it did give a different perspective to the building. Can I suggest that rather than replace old photos, we just create new ones and let the old photos sit in Wikimedia Commons? That way we don't lose the old photos and we can still have the new photos used in the articles. Cheers. J Bar (talk) 02:46, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

• I will upload separately and revert the other. --User:Adam.J.W.C. (talk) 02:48, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Cheers mate. That's great. J Bar (talk) 04:57, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Spiderman

I have removed the previous image (which I put first) from the Spider-man article. The new image seems good. However I am not sure in which articles to use the image. You may place the image in spider-man article. I am a bit confused here how to present the image in the other article. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 06:18, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I have found another image Image:Ahmedabad riots1.jpg , which may be used in the religion section of the main article with caption "Blessings of Agni. Fire worship in India in 2002" or something like that. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 07:12, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

• . --User:Adam.J.W.C. (talk) (talk) (talk) 23:50, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

List of NSW WWII Airfields

Here is link to NSW WWII Airfields List_of_Australian_Air_Force_installations#New_South_Wales_3. As you can see from this webpage there are lots of others in Australia too. Regards --Newm30 (talk) 05:00, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

RAAF Bradfield Park

Not sure if RAAF Bradfield Park is suitable for inclusion on Template:Barracks Batteries Bunkers and Forts in Sydney. Can you advise --Newm30 (talk) 01:59, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Re

This Viz... is going to be problematic. Also note his edits are basically India-related articles. I do not know one thing, is that project has anything 3RR or similar? There is no reason behind the deletion. And separate article on the particular sport have been started and so that much more stuffs can be incorporated in the other article. Otolemur crassicaudatus (talk) 11:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Your recent edits

Hi there. In case you didn't know, when you add content to talk pages and Wikipedia pages that have open discussion, you should sign your posts by typing four tildes ( ~~~~ ) at the end of your comment. If you can't type the tilde character, you should click on the signature button located above the edit window. This will automatically insert a signature with your name and the time you posted the comment. This information is useful because other editors will be able to tell who said what, and when. Thank you! --SineBot (talk) 23:41, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Newington Arms Depot

You may be interested in this Newington Arms Depot. Regards --Newm30 (talk) 02:01, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

The site is now a park and has guided tours. See Sydney Olympic Park link for details. Regards --Newm30 (talk) 22:00, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Martin Amis

Hi Adam.J.W.C.: Do you know how to do a good crop of a photograph? I added a portrait of Martin Amis to the Martin Amis article, but it has a lot of extra stuff around his head. Nice stuff but takes away the focus from his facial features. Could you help me in any way?-Dwindle dwindle (talk) 01:53, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Sydney

Thanks for fixing the problem with heritage homes of sydney. How'd you find it so fast? From my message on JBar's page? Thanks anyway. (It wasn't supposed to come out the way it did.)

Sardaka (talk) 11:42, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Who is skelotor

I found this skeleton today. I don't know what it is, I think it might be a bat. Does anyone know what kind of bat or what article I could put this pic in.. Cheers_Ad@m.J.W.C. (talk) 12:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

File:Skelotor.JPG

What could this be

You should ask the above question on Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science, not on the talk page for Skeleton. --Rajah (talk) 23:23, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the lead. I'll look into it right now.Cheers. --User:Adam.J.W.C. (talk) (talk) 23:29, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow. Now *that* image is *really* cool. Sarah 15:02, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

It was taken at the Middle Head Fortifications, the skeleton might still be there. --User:Adam.J.W.C. (talk) (talk) 21:02, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Lane Cove, New South Wales

Nice photo you added to the article today. I noticed that you wrote photoshopped in the comments. Just a suggestion, but I think it might look even better if you cropped some of the road from the bottom of the photo, so you can't see so much black ashphalt. Cheers. --J Bar (talk) 11:02, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Lane Cove picture

Thanks for your comments about my most recent picture. At first I thought the image was a bit thin so I actually added some ashfalt to it at the bottom. Also I thought that part of the image was kind of warped which was also a little disappointing. But as for exposure and clarity I guess its not to bad. I will look into cropping it though. Cheers. --User:Adam.J.W.C. (talk) (talk) 22:22, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I have cropped the image and I have completely removed the floating road sign the was in front of Blockbuster video. To remove some blurryness from one of the hotel doors I had to reconstruct the main entrance. Have a closer look and you will see the same guy drinking at the bar from two different doors, the main door and the door to the left. Cheers. --User:Adam.J.W.C. (talk) (talk) 22:47, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

That looks heaps better now Adam. You picked a good time of night too, at dusk. So the sky and background doesn't look too black and all the lights have been switched on. Excellent work. J Bar (talk) 03:10, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Google web accelerator

Why am I blocked from editing wikipedia with the Google web accelerator —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adam.J.W.C. (talk • contribs) 02:46, March 22, 2008

Did you not see any instructions directing you to read Wikipedia:Google Web Accelerator for an explanation? If not, please provide me with the IP address that you were blocked under so that I can correct this. --  Netsnipe  ►  04:37, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi, this is the link to the block log for the ip address [6]. There are no contribs for the ip and it looks as though it has been blocked for three years, I am not sure if this is my actuall ip address. Cheers. --User:Adam.J.W.C. (talk) (talk) 05:42, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

It's definitely not, unless you actually work at Google = P. (See WHOIS). --  Netsnipe  ►  12:58, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

Deletion of portal

Hi, I'm glad you are finally willing to discuss something :) As for deleting the portal, thats up to you. I think it was a good idea to make it, but then again there really wouldn't be too much content I guess.

I'm sorry if I seemed rude to you, but it was getting annoying... The reason why I changed the redirect was because every suburb in NSW redircts to its article page (unless there is a suburb of the same name in another country). The New South Wales link even goes to the NSW page, not the portal.

Thanks, Eliethesame (talk) 07:28, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

I see what you mean, however links for the portal are on every page related to the City of Bankstown. The portal can be easily found by someone browsing through articles related to Bankstown. As for that link, if the suburb article is more diverse, then I don't think it is completely correct. A quick browse through the suburb's article, and I can see alot of things that are about the city and not the suburb.

If you want to make the city's article more diverse, I think there would be no problem in moving information that is supposed to be about the city away from the suburb's article. I would do this myself, but I can't really do it right now :) Thanks, Eliethesame (talk) 07:44, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Scheyville Farm

Hi, thought you might be interested in former barracks at Scheyville Farm Scheyville National Park. A military school in artillery and anti-tank warfare was set up on the site during World War II and 73rd Australian Anti Aircraft Search Light Company and the 1st Parachute Battalion (Australian Army) being stationed there. Also used as Officer Training Unit during Vietnam War. Regards --Newm30 (talk) 02:38, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

• Re: Domain Naval Fuel Tanks - I would find it hard to create a new page on Fuel Tanks, however I might suggest a heading on The Domain, Sydney page? Regards --Newm30 (talk) 02:21, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Image sizing

Hello Adam - could I please ask you not to size-force images in articles as you did on Bunker? By forcing the image to a specific size, you overwrite whatever a user sets as his preferred general thumbnail size in his preferences (for example, I have it at 300px, so your change actually reduced the size for me). The secondary effect is that when some images are forced and some are not, it can produce an unsightly effect of different widths above each other when multiple images are present.

WP:MOS lists a few examples where forcing is appropriate (I for example use it when images are underneath an infobox, to get them to the same witdh as the infobox). Cheers and happy editing. Ingolfson (talk) 04:25, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Surry Hills

I understand your concerns about the number of photos but some suburbs have more interesting landmarks than others. I don't think a panorama is a solution for Surry Hills because these landmark buildings are all over the suburb, not just on the main street. The other problem with panoramas in the suburban streets is that you end up with huge spaces and gaps where the roads are. In these suburb articles, they may take up a lot of space or don't always look good on low resolution screens and other editors may not like them and will remove them. Cheers. J Bar (talk) 22:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Cave Clan

Hi Adam. Regarding your recent edits to the Cave Clan article. You seem to be reverting a great deal of contributions made by other editors. I understand the natural desire to have your input in the article, but in a lot of cases i think the updates have been quite appropriate and have served to improve the overall article. I am interested in hearing your side of the story.S.Nadir (talk) 16:27, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Pictures of people

Hi. Do you know what the rules are concerning picture with people in them and posting them here. --User:Adam.J.W.C. (talk) (talk) 17:42, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

It depends what you mean. Photos of people for biographies are allowed but there are copyright issues. The photo must be your own or in the public domain. If you are talking about photos of people in other articles like Suburbs, I think in many cases it wouldn't appropriate to have them there nut if they are part of the scenery and unidentifiable, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. It might be a problem if people can be identified and have not given permission for their image to be used. I'm sure there's some official wikipedia rules out there somewhere. Cheers. J Bar (talk) 02:10, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I have already checked it out somewhere in commons. I actually meant if you take a photo of someone, post it here and then they complain would there be any problems with that. --User:Adam.J.W.C. (talk) (talk) 03:15, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

If the photo is of a non public figure, then posting an image of them without their permission is privacy violation. They could be seek compensation for the use of their image, or follow other options offline including stalking charges. Posting of such images here would be a gross violation of WP:BLP and WP:CIVILITY and would result in an immediate block of your account. Gnangarra 03:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

• Thanks for that, after reading what I did on the commons website I decided not to upload. Thanks for the information . --User:Adam.J.W.C. (talk) (talk) 06:33, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

ANI

Since Hesperian did not give you the courtesy, you are the subject of a discussion at WP:ANI#Adam.J.W.C. Stalking. seicer | talk | contribs 04:28, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

AfD nomination of Cave Clan

An editor has nominated Cave Clan, an article which you have created or worked on, for deletion. We appreciate your contributions, but the nominator doesn't believe that the article satisfies Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion and has explained why in his/her nomination (see also "What Wikipedia is not").

Your opinions on whether the article meets inclusion criteria and what should be done with the article are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cave Clan (2nd nomination) and please be sure to sign your comments with four tildes (~~~~).

You may also edit the article during the discussion to improve it but should not remove the articles for deletion template from the top of the article; such removal will not end the deletion debate. Thank you. BJBot (talk) 05:59, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

ID image

The deleted image was derivative work, without sources its a copyright violation. Gnangarra 09:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

that would help, the licensing maybe a problem but I'll wait until the you find the images to see. Gnangarra

I will have to check, the image may have been deleted over there as well. --User:Adam.J.W.C. (talk) (talk) 09:10, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey!

Adam,

I'm sorry to see you're having a hard time of it over at WP:ANI. There's nothing I can add to that particular debate (well intentioned uninvolved parties blundering in can often make things worse), but I did want to say that the brief contact I've had with you on the project has always been good and I've found you to be a helpful and constructive editor. I hope this works out well for you and hope to see you continue working here on the 'pedia. :)

Cheers mate, Xdenizen (talk) 10:32, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up, when did we cross paths. --User:Adam.J.W.C. (talk) (talk) 22:14, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Back in January regarding the Poverty in India fuss [7]. Be well, Xdenizen (talk) 00:52, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Blocked

You have been indefinitely blocked from editing in accordance with Wikipedia's blocking policy for attempting to harass other users. Once the block has expired, you are welcome to make constructive contributions. If you believe this block is unjustified, you may contest the block by adding the text {{unblock|your reason here}} below.

Per AN/I discussion (hard link). It appears you outed the presumed real identity of an editor you are in a dispute with, whose details have not been linked to his nickname anywhere publicly. This edit was oversighted by a senior Wikipedian, although I and others saw it before that. Approximately two hours later you taunted the user regarding Facebook. In the time since these events occurred, you have neither offered any adequate explanation or shown any willingness to discuss your very serious breach of our harassment guideline. This is quite separate from any other issues with relation to pictures you have uploaded.

If you wish to have this block reviewed, due to the circumstances, you will probably need to email the Arbitration Committee, whose email is listed on this page. Orderinchaos 19:56, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I explained to User:Merbabu in private email that he once sent me a private email. This is when I had a different user name, I explained this as well. When he sent me this email it had his first and last name in it. The email was sent via Wikipedia he revealed his name to me if full. I replied to him on my user page on a first name basis. If he revealed his first name to me via email then he is the one that has allowed me to use it. With the face book thing well you can look anyone up on that so I thought there was nothing wrong. I wasn't even sure if it was him. I was just guessing. --User:Adam.J.W.C. (talk) (talk) 20:28, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Adam, if you want to appeal you can also post the unblock template here or you can email the unblock mailinglist and someone uninvolved will review it but if you do this, you really need to come clean about any images you've taken from other websites and claimed as your own etc and come to some understanding about your edit warring and blanket reverting of anyone who "touches" your articles. Sarah 22:06, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Also I think you have a bit of explaining to do as to why you revealed his presumed name publicly while in a dispute months after you came into an inadvertent release of it. Also, re Facebook, the issue was not whether you looked him up or not, but your publishing of it here two hours after an edit revealing his name had been deleted from Wikipedia - which your edit implicitly recognised. I'm sure you can appreciate how it looks. Orderinchaos 00:16, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I can explain a bit more in detail later on but my time is limited. I did not realise the seriousness of doing this and if I only knew at the time I wouldn't have done this. I admit now to being a D_HEAD. --User:Adam.J.W.C. (talk) (talk) 00:37, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments in this matter. I can garantee that all the images are mine. The few pictures from the Bankstown Bunker article were taken from a website where the owner of that article gave me permission via email. The email was copy and pasted into some permission thing on commens. I can prove that all the images are mine. I cannot do to much on the computer at the moment becuase I am at work. I will return in the evening. . --User:Adam.J.W.C. (talk) (talk)

Adam, I am willing to try to help negotiate an unblock, but there are certain things that I need you to agree to first. It's very important that you understand that it utterly unacceptable to post on Wikipedia another user's personal information or what you suspect might be their personal information. If you were to be unblocked and you did this again, you would immediately be reblocked indefinitely and there wouldn't be any third chances.

Secondly, multiple people have raised concerns about your editing style. That is, your snarky and agro comments and edit summaries, your edit warring and your blanket reverting any edits to "your" articles, such as John Glover. Because of the recent incidents, you've now come to the attention of a very large number of admins and I can guarantee you that if you were unblocked in the future and you then continued this behaviour you would be reblocked very quickly. Therefore, I would like an undertaking from you that if you were to be unblocked that sort of aggressive editing style would be a thing of the past and you will stop blanket reverting, edit warring, reverting without discussion, the snarky comments and edit summaries etc and from this point on you will use talk pages to discuss content disputes and you will do so in a manner compliant with behavioural policies and guidelines. If you find that you really don't like someone and can't collaborate with them civilly without being snarky, then it's probably best if you just stay away from them because if things continue as they have been recently then you are going to find you are community banned. Wikipedia is a collaborative project and we all have to work with people we don't like. None of us expect you to become best mates with other editors or to agree with whatever they write, but there are ways to express your disagreement and objections that don't require you to be rude and aggressive.

If you can sincerely agree to the following, I will do my best to reduce your block:

1. Never post speculation about another editor's real world identity, where they live, what they do for a job, etc.
2. No more snarky, rude or aggressive posts and edit summaries.
3. No more edit warring.
4. No more blanket reverts without discussion.
5. No more posting of images that you did not take yourself.

In addition to this, you need to honestly respond to the questions posted above by Orderinchaos and by other admins on ANI (you can respond here on this page).

Thanks, Sarah 13:18, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your efforts in trying to resolve this matter. I will respond to all these matters. I am just a little hard pressed for time at the moment. I might have to wait until the weekend when I have plenty of time to think about my stupid actions and to express in full detail my remorse to this matter. Once again Thankyou. --User:Adam.J.W.C. (talk) (talk) 23:24, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

No problems, Adam. Just post here on your talk page when you've got your thoughts together and have some time and I'll come back and try to help you. Sarah 01:16, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

{{unblock}}

To whom it may concern
On the 8th of April 2008 I revealed the first name of a Wikipedia editor on my user talk page. Then a few hours later I made the stupid mistake of saying, did you get my Face book poke. This was during a revert war when I may have been a little annoyed with content that I added to an article being removed. At the time of publishing his name I had absolutely know idea that this was a serious breach of policy and when I placed the comments, ‘did you get my face book poke’ I had know idea of the discussions that were taking place on the Wikipedia administrators notice board concerning it. I only found out when I went through the contributions of a certain editor who left a deletion notice on my talk page that these discussions were taking place. When I saw the discussion that was taking place I became extremely nervous and started to think about what I had just done. When I read further into the discussion it wasn’t until then that I became fully aware of the seriousness of my actions. Some of the things that were said about me made me feel like a common criminal and rightfully so. I was also concerned about the other editor’s feelings toward this as well, because even though I made the mistake of revealing his name and that I was annoyed about the reverts, I did not want to cause any fear or anxiety within him. I felt really bad about this as well. I did send the editor in question a private email explaining my actions and that I was sorry and also how I came to know about his real name hoping to clarify the reason for me knowing it.

Now that I realise the seriousness of this offence and the effect that it has on the Wikipedia community I can guarantee that this will never happen again on my behalf. If I had known at the time off doing this, well there never would have been a first time at all.

So once again I promise never to publish or reveal other editors personal details or even pretend to know someone’s details and I apologise for doing so in the first place.

Like I have mentioned earlier on in my statement if I knew the seriousness of my actions and the effect that it had on the community, there never would have been a first offence.

• Other issues

On the night that the offence took place; other issues were also brought to my attention. Quite a few of them were mentioned of the administrator’s notice board. These issues at the time distracted me from answering the stalking charge at hand and I spent most of my time trying to explain these other issues and not the main issue which was the most important. At the time I had to leave the house and had to log off. It wasn’t until the next morning that I realised I had been blocked indefinitely.

Some of the other issues that have been brought to my attention are:

1. Never post speculation about another editor's real world identity, where they live, what they do for a job, etc.
2. No more snarky, rude or aggressive posts and edit summaries.
3. No more edit warring.
4. No more blanket reverts without discussion.
5. No more posting of images that you did not take yourself.

I also promise to address these issues and to abide by the rules listed above. I now know that I will have to be very careful in future when it comes to edit summaries, edit waring and blanket reverts without discussion, also posting of images that are not mine.

All the images that I have uploaded to Wikipedia are mine. The deleted images earlier on in my upload history were scanned maps of Sydney from 1945. I thought that due to their age they would be copyright expired. Some of the others were album covers of Troy Cassar-Daley CD’S. I was fairly new to Wikipedia at the time of uploading them and thought that this would have been okay due to the fact that I saw other album covers on Wikipedia. I was wrong.

Yours sincerely

Adam.J.W.C.

09:17, 18 April 2008 (UTC)