Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association

Statmuse

FYI that at best, there's no consensus that Statmuse is reliable (Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 400 § StatMuse). As it'll pretty much spit out an answer for anything, it's WP:OR and the answer is trivial unless reliable secondary sources mention it. To that extent, it's also trivial to pull out stats from a site like basketball-reference.com, though nobody will presumably question basic stats (e.g. season scoring average), which one assumes is also mentioned in a secondary source somewhere.—Bagumba (talk) 05:30, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba: StatMuse is like those silly factoids that commentators use to kill time between plays, i.e. First left-handed player to make five three-pointers during the third quarter on a Tuesday night full moon, colloquially referred to as "ESPN stats". Not a secondary source, and certainly not sufficient to establish due weight in a global general-interest encyclopedia such as this. It's been spammed en masse across NBA-related articles and it's an ever-growing problem. Left guide (talk) 07:55, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

And its the go-to content for amateur writers at ClutchPoints, FanNation, SBNation, etc. —Bagumba (talk) 08:13, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

@Bagumba: List of NBA regular season records is probably the worst offender regarding StatMuse and similar sources, especially in relation to how prominent and important the topic is. That page needs help. Left guide (talk) 08:29, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

I always remove StatMuse when I see it and try to find a reliable source or place a tag for a better citation. – sbaio 13:38, 23 August 2024 (UTC)

Player lists and flags

For the most part, NBA rosters and lists have not shown a players nationality. The NBA does not have a quota (aside from an unofficial one for Blacks in the early days), unlike some other domestic leagues, where it might be relevant. For flags, MOS:SPORTFLAG says:

Flags should never indicate the player's nationality in a non-sporting sense. Flags should only indicate the sportsperson's national squad/team or representative nationality.

But none of these are relevant to almost any NBA-related list. At Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 20 § Nationality, discussion led to removal of nationality. At best, there was discussion that some NBA awards talked about a player being "international", probably related part of the NBA's push to establish itself as global. So NBA award pages were previously the only page that listed nationality, since it was considered WP:DUE. Someone went and added flags at some point. And some players have multiple nationalies, but many WP lists just show one of them. Someone like Hakeem Olajuwon ended up with US citizenship too, but was still touted as "international" by the NBA.[1]

If the intent is to use the NBA sense of "international", then labelling it "Nationality" has always been misleading.—Bagumba (talk) 06:58, 28 August 2024 (UTC)

FWIW, most European soccer leagues do not have player quotas, but still have flags on them.

Most basketball leagues except U.S. ones do have quotas. Howard the Duck (talk) 11:20, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

It might be relevant in footy somehow, but is WP:UNDUE and trivial in NBA coverage. Almost like some editors wanting to make national team coaching stints prominent in NBA coach infoboxes. I'm not even sure if it's as prestegious in other countries for hoops as it is for footy. —Bagumba (talk) 12:31, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

National team coaching stints tend to be a rather big deal in the world. In my experience it is mostly U.S. based people who tend to, for a lack of better words, "look down on" national team related things. Alvaldi (talk) 14:08, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

I'd say its a bigger deal for say US Soccer. For US basketball, men's and women's, they've mostly gotten away with just getting an All-Star team together a few weeks before the Olympics. The gap is closing. There's less Amer interest in FIBA World Cup. —Bagumba (talk) 17:13, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

For national team coaching in infoboxes, should that just be listed as an entry on the list of teams someone coached for? We do this on other sports (not just soccer). Baseball, an American sport more averse to national team competitions than basketball, lists coaching stints of national team managers, the Japanese ones, at least. Howard the Duck (talk) 19:31, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

Outside of NBA coaches, national team coaching stints are generally listed in basketball coaches infoboxes. Alvaldi (talk) 19:42, 29 August 2024 (UTC)

The last discussion I believe at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Basketball/Archive 12 § National teams in infoboxes had no consensus. One of the arguments was why do differently for coaches than we do for players, for which we only shows medals. —Bagumba (talk) 14:44, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

As in, why would we show NT coaching stints in the career history when we don't show the NT playing stints in the career history? I could ask back, why do we show college coaching stints in career history when we don't show college playing stints in the career history? In fairness, college stints are shown separately. While it may not be the case in the United States, being a member of a national team holds prestige in large part of the world so why aren't national team stints shown similary? Alvaldi (talk) 15:24, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

For coaches, they are being paid professionally at the college level (i.e. they can make a living off of it), so it's part of their "professional" career history, if that makes sense. If it meets WP:DUE coverage for a given country, then it could make sense on a per-country basis. —Bagumba (talk) 17:59, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't think Steve Kerr was not paid handsomely by USA Basketball. "they can make a living off of it" has never been one of the criteria we use in listing teams, both as a player or as a coach, He either played for/coached them or not. Howard the Duck (talk) 18:35, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

It was more a response to the college coaching listing question As a coach, it's part of their professional career. In fact, college playing career is shown too, albeit not under "Career history" (see Joe_Young_(basketball) and his two college stints) —Bagumba (talk) 18:47, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

And national team coaching stints is part of coaches professional career. Quite frankly, I see no consensus in the above discussions to disinclude national team stints. The description field for the coaching stints in the infobox template simply says All the team(s) the person has coached for during their career" but despite that, the discussion starts by turning it around and claim that pro-NT editors must gain a consensus for it to be included. Alvaldi (talk) 19:18, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

Quite frankly, I see no consensus in the above discussions to disinclude national team stints. "No consensus" usually means both ways, which would include no consensus to include. So it's glass half-full/half-empty. —Bagumba (talk) 03:05, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes FWIW, we also show all stints someone has in college, even high school, as a player. Presumably this is also the same with coaching. There's no good reason why we exclude national team stints; every other sport allows for this in their infoboxes.

Now, in cases where people ask for exceptions, I'd ask, what makes it special? So... what makes this special? Howard the Duck (talk) 19:29, 30 August 2024 (UTC)

For NBA pages, perhaps because it has been historically dominated by US players, it hasn't been "special", but rather the status quo. It seems reflective of sources, perhaps dominated by US press. If people decide that coverage has changed, maybe consensus changes also. Anyways Alvaldi says its already done for coaches outside the NBA, so maybe the status quo is already fine if WP:DUE is already in place. —Bagumba (talk) 03:14, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

In the 2017 discussion one of the arguments including NT coaching stints was that being a NT coach was not career defining. However, being the USA NT coach seems to garner quite the coverage in major publications, for instance: Bobby Knight, who coached 1984 U.S. Olympic men’s basketball team to gold, dies at 83 (NBC Sports, 2023), Bob Knight's moves with 1984 US Olympic team showed his scouting skills matched his tactical skills (Fox Sports, 2023), Daly left mark on Pistons, Dream Team (ESPN, 2008), USA Basketball announces Golden State Warriors' Steve Kerr as next Olympic men's coach (ESPN, 2021), How an ex-NBA coach and a team of G Leaguers took over USA Basketball (USA Today, 2019), Larry Brown Says He Hasn't 'Gotten Over' Team USA's 2004 Olympic Bronze Medal (Bleacher Report, 2019), No more 'wine soaked' dinners without Gregg Popovich (New York Times, 2023), After years of frustration, Gregg Popovich takes another shot at golden moment (Fox Sports, 2021), Team USA’s New Era Under Steve Kerr: Continuing The Legacy (Forbes, 2024), Where is Mike Krzyzewski? Why former Duke and Olympics legend is not coaching Team USA in Paris (USA Today, 2024), Dream Team experience, success ‘was totally unforgettable’ (The Atlanta Journal-Constitution, 2015), Karl will suffer U.S. defeat more than anyone (ESPN, 2002). Alvaldi (talk) 10:41, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Larry Brown led US to bronze in Olympics, but no mention in his Hall of Fame profile. George Karl coached the US in the 2002 World Championship, didn't medal, and no mention in his HOF profile. —Bagumba (talk) 16:44, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

The infobox is a summary of an article. If the article discusses someone coaching a team, it is expected that the team will be listed on the infobox. Howard the Duck (talk) 17:01, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't want to see player's AUA coaching stints or basketball camps. So an infobox isn't everything. The issue is whether national team stints for NBA coaches is a "key fact" for MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE, and whether medals are sufficient, as has been the status quo. —Bagumba (talk) 17:57, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Stupid question: If a player did not medal for a national team (which are several orders of magnitude higher than AAU or Drew League competition), it is also not listed on the infobox, right? Basketball doesn't do it like the soccer infobox, which shows progression from under-x teams to the senior ones. Howard the Duck (talk) 18:54, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

I'm not a soccer fan/editor, so I can't speak to how they do it. For the NBA, it needs to be WP:DUE and meet MOS:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Under-X teams would be overkill, arguably even the under-X medals, which a lot of NBA bios have in their ibx too. —Bagumba (talk) 01:11, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

The infobox in Cristiano Ronaldo has his Portugal national team appearances from U15 to the senior one. FWIW, I would do what the soccer infobox and cull the awards and even the medals and list those instead.

So yes, AAU teams, overkill. National teams... absolutely not. Howard the Duck (talk) 22:35, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

Maybe coverage differs regionally, but there is no culture of caps in US basketball coverage, and the mainstream media doesnt cover the junior national team events. Most is from FIBA and USA Basketball, which are not independent sources. —Bagumba (talk) 00:43, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Though it is usually covered in the media, at least outside the US, if a player has played for a NT, I am not sure that the number of caps for basketball players are as easy to find as they are for football players. I am also not pushing for junior national teams to be included, only the senior team.

For players, my suggestion would be to include just a single line in the "Career information" part similar to the college line.

National team: Spain (1981–1985)

We could also remove the "Representing Spain" field from the medalbox since it would not be needed. Alvaldi (talk) 09:24, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Sources indicate that national team stints for NBA coaches are indeed a "key fact". Alvaldi (talk) 09:28, 5 September 2024 (UTC)

Their Naismith Basketball Hall of Fame profile doesn't mention alot of things found in their Wikipedia infobox. Alvaldi (talk) 23:52, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Yes. It's a data point, not an end-all to the discussion. —Bagumba (talk) 01:08, 1 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't think Steve Kerr was not paid handsomely by USA Basketball: Perhaps. Just dont see Woj or Shams announcing their signings or terms. —Bagumba (talk) 03:20, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

I know you'd say we don't base what goes in the infobox by what Woj announces but yes, we don't base what goes in the infobox by what Woj announces. Howard the Duck (talk) 15:45, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Was commenting only on your previous comment on his pay. But sure. —Bagumba (talk) 16:46, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Which was a reply on your statement if coaches are being paid professionally... Howard the Duck (talk) 17:08, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Which was only a reponse about college coaching stints, not implying that national teams didn't pay something. —Bagumba (talk) 17:43, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

I don't remember discussing about college coaching stints, but those mid-major teams may not pay well unlike the bluebloods. L Howard the Duck (talk) 18:56, 31 August 2024 (UTC)

Pretty much all college head coaching jobs pay enough to at least support a person. I went to a division III school (lowest NCAA level) and the basketball coach didn't need to hold a second job to live, though he certainly did not make John Calipari money. Rikster2 (talk) 15:44, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I no doubt that what you said is true. National team coaches are different: some are concurrently with a club team, some are full-time. Obviously, for senior USA teams, this is done concurrently while coaching an NBA team because in the old days, NBA players can literally sleepwalk their walk into a game and win by 50. Other national teams prefer a full-time coach, more so recently when FIBA introduced FIFA-style windows in qualifying tournaments.

Again, I doubt Steve Kerr is not being paid handsomely by USA Basketball. I don't think he is doing this out civic duty or out of the goodness of his heart, more so that there's a risk that he'd do a Larry Brown, not win the gold, and be humiliated in the Olympics. Howard the Duck (talk) 22:41, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

NBA Sportsmanship Award vote to exclude on WP:NBAHIGHLIGHTS?

NBA Sportsmanship Award was only included on WP:NBAHIGHLIGHTS because it reflected existing practice at the time, not because of any explicit discussion. Meanwhile, the following are not included (not because of explicit consensus): NBA Teammate of the Year, Clutch Player of the Year, NBA Hustle Award, NBA Citizenship Award, NBA Social Justice Champion Award, and NBA Community Assist Award.

I am in favor of either excluding Sportsmanship Award or including all of the above. Shall we do a vote? - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 18:47, 3 September 2024 (UTC)

It was brought up in 2012 at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject National Basketball Association/Archive 20 § Career highlights order. At that point, I was only presenting how to organize what was already conssitently being done, and Sportsmanship was in bios but something like J. Walter Kennedy Citizenship Award was not. FWIW, basketball-reference.com displays it on top of players' profiles.[2] I'm neutral on what to do with it. Willing to grandfather that, but see no compelling reason to add the newer ones (yet).—Bagumba (talk) 09:02, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

All of those should be excluded from the infobox IMO. Rikster2 (talk) 15:41, 4 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm w/Rikster2 on this. SportsGuy789 (talk) 00:00, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

My opinion is that if the player doesn't have many highlights then it is fine to include. However if he has many highlights (20+ maybe?) then this is definitely not one of the highlights of his career and should not be included. The NBA Community Assist Award might be one of George Hill's top career highlights, but not Stephen Curry's.

Honestly, the more I think about it the more I come to the conclusion that we should rate the awards by classes, for instance A, B, C etc. Top-tier league championships and MVP's should be A class while these mentioned above would be much lower. Then put a soft cap on highlights. If a player has more than a certain amount of total highlights, then we drop the lower class awards from the highlights section (they can be included under a more detailed Awards and honors section at the bottom of the article). Alvaldi (talk) 11:55, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

I like the idea of highlight tiers but I have never liked the idea of including a given highlight in some cases but not others. In my opinion that just creates confusion with non-hardcore editors. If, for example, college all-conference is notable, then it should be included in all the cases where players won these awards. Players like LeBron or Wilt Chamberlain or Larry Bird will always have longer highlight lists than others. But the idea of (again an example) the NBA sportsmanship award showing up in some players’ infoboxes but not others leaves me cold. Just have the discipline to exclude it and only mention it on the prose Rikster2 (talk) 15:27, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, there's too many drive-by editors that will see awards in some bios and add it to the missing ones. In a crowd-sourced environment, it just reduces churn to go with all or nothing. —Bagumba (talk) 17:59, 11 September 2024 (UTC)

Hoops Rumors site reliable?

Do people consider https://www.hoopsrumors.com reliable? It's used on Talen Horton-Tucker for his supposed signing of an Exhibit 10 contract, a murky area that has been discussed before. The source itself relies on RealGM.com to declare this "official".[3] Often, teams don't realeae anything on Exhibit 10s until training camp, if they even say anything at all. —Bagumba (talk) 12:10, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

doesn’t matter if hoops rumors is reliable or not, we use official announcements or addition to the official roster. The only cases we have made exceptions have been high profile transactions that have been reported everywhere (like LeBron James) where it would look silly for Wikipedia not to reflect it. Horton-Tucker is not in that category of signing to force the issue. However, he is shown on the Bulls official roster page (albeit with a FA marker). Rikster2 (talk) 12:37, 7 September 2024 (UTC)

Listing someone new on your roster but marking them with FA is unclear what it actually means, so I'd semi-discount it. —Bagumba (talk) 10:15, 8 September 2024 (UTC)

Nomination of List of NBA career ejections leaders for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article List of NBA career ejections leaders is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of NBA career ejections leaders until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article until the discussion has finished.

Left guide (talk) 22:43, 13 September 2024 (UTC)

Notice of reliable sources noticeboard discussion

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Fadeaway World. Thank you. Left guide (talk) 11:28, 15 September 2024 (UTC)