Talk:2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike

Requested move 27 September 2024

2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike → 27 September 2024 Beirut attacks or 27 September 2024 Beirut attack – While Israel states it only targeted the Hezbollah headquarters, several RS say the attack lay waste to "Several apartment blocks"[1] or "multiple high-rise apartment buildings"[2]. Given such an immense destruction of civilian infrastructure, we should not put Israeli claims that this was a "precise strike" on just the Hezbollah HQ in wikivoice (violation of WP:POVTITLE]), and instead pick the most neutral title. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 21:40, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose, the suggested title is empty of meaning. A more relevant move would be to attempted assassination of Hassan Nasrallah or something similar Galamore (talk) 22:04, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Had the attack only killed/injured Nasrallah and those close to him, I'd have agreed with you. But the amount of collateral damage is immense and reducing it to one person, is quite POV. Also, there is precedent: consider the 1981 Iraqi embassy bombing in Beirut whose stated target was Iraqi PM Tariq Aziz or the Brighton hotel bombing, whose stated target was British PM Margaret Thatcher.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 22:59, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

• Consider the Israeli attempt to assassinate Muhammad Deif. The article is called 13 July 2024 al-Mawasi attack, based on consensus on the talk page. That event killed 90+ people and injured 300+, and it is quite likely that the death toll for this event might be similarly high.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 23:02, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Support: the proposed move strikes me as in line with existing practice, the wording in RS, and neutrality. AntiDionysius (talk) 23:40, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

@AntiDionysius:, fyi, I have changed the proposed title from "27 September 2024 Beirut attack" to "27 September 2024 Beirut attacks" (notice the plural).VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 01:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose with multiple additional attacks on Beirut weapons storage locations in the evening of the same day, but not on Hezbollah HQs, a better title might have to be the 27 September 2024 Beirut attacks (plural, not singular). This is going to take a few days to sort out what all these multiple attacks did, and how many Hezbollah & Iranian operatives may have been targeted in the attacks, before a WP:COMMONNAME can really be chosen for the longer term. N2e (talk) 00:04, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

You're right about the plural: "The series of massive explosions sent huge clouds of smoke soaring above the densely populated Haret Hreik neighbourhood in Dahiyeh, southern Beirut, around dusk on Friday."[3] France24's headline is also "Terror, panic as Israeli strikes wipe out Beirut buildings". I'll change it.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 01:42, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

That can be its own thing, the most notable thing here is the killing of Nasrallah, and that needs its own article. Personisinsterest (talk) 13:35, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Oppose This particular, single strike is going to be the notable one among many others which are part of the wider conflict. Ultimograph5 (talk) 03:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Ultimograph5 can you clarify? It seems there were multiple strikes in the same location. For example, France24 says "The strikes killed at least two people and injured 76, Lebanon's health ministry said in a preliminary toll." Notice the plural.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 03:57, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Vice regent I suppose the word "strike" is confusing, France24 seems to be defining "strike" as one bomb while I was referring to the whole event which lasted like a minute. My definition is in line with other articles like Israeli airstrike on the Iranian consulate in Damascus but I'm not sure there's any standard Ultimograph5 (talk) 04:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Ultimograph5 to clarify then, you'd be ok with "27 September 2024 Beirut attack" as opposed to "27 September 2024 Beirut attacks"? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 04:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Support, it is not even confirmed he was killed yet. Also, given the nature of the bombings (attacking apartment blocks), it might be best to go with "attack" same as 13 July 2024 al-Mawasi attack as noted above. </MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont /> 08:43, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Now that it is confirmed he is dead, it still matters that potentially hundreds are dead from airstrikes on apartment blocks in a densely populated suburb. This article probably should just be called Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah (as it actually was when I first replied, IDK why), as I can't think of a not-unwieldy title that incorporates the civilian casualties in it, however we should have another article that goes in depth on the potentially hundreds dead.</MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont />

Support per above. We did not call Deif's attempted assassination "attempted assassination of Mohammed Deif". TwistedAxe [contact] 10:39, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Killing is confirmed now but still think we need a separate article on the bombings. Selfstudier (talk) 11:53, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I think this should be its own standalone article too, yes. Although I think we can incorporate both the attack and the assassination in the same article perhaps? Otherwise two separate articles are okay too IMO. TwistedAxe [contact] 11:55, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong oppose he is dead. No need for more ambiguity which is not in line with alike articles DeadlyRampage26 (talk) 12:03, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong oppose, even if civilians were killed in the attack, absolutely the most notable thing here is that Nasrallah has been assassinated, confirmed by Hezbollah.[4] Personisinsterest (talk) 12:04, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Strong supporrt Wikipedia should not adopt a belligerent's rationale in the title for an attack that seems likely to have killed dozens Zellfire999 (talk) 12:16, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Move to Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah – With his assassination confirmed, it is now a forgone matter that the most notable event within the scope of this article, and the name by which this event will be known is as the assassination of Hassan Nasrallah. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 13:11, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Note: This was actually the title of the article when I first !voted, did someone move it and then it got reverted whilst this RfC was going on? </MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont /> 13:16, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, the page was moved by a new user. We could just revert that but best to just let the RM work itself out. It appears we are approaching SPEEDY. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 22:22, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Move to Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah, per Coffeeandcrumbs above. This is the single most notable and significant aspect of this event, and is commonly described as such by RS. ABHammad (talk) 13:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Move to Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah. I'm the creator and I used the current name 2024 Hezbollah headquarters strike since this is what was known at the time of creation. The specific date + place title is bad 'cause it says nothing on the real topic here. Now that all related parties confirmed he is dead I think that's the main topic in this article and the title should mention that. EnfantDeLaVille (talk) 13:51, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

• Rename Killing of Hassan Nasrallah, in line with Killing of Osama bin Laden. To characterize it as an assassination is reflective of a minor point-of-view. Zaathras (talk) 14:26, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

  @Zaathras can you explain the difference? OdNahlawi (talk) 15:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

  My personal opinion is that assassinations are politically motivated, and Nasrallah was a terrorist combatant, not a political target. The Wikipedia-based reason is that the majority of reliable sources appear to not use the A-word in their coverage, except to note that like-minded (to Nasrallah and his cause) individuals and groups may refers to it as that. Zaathras (talk) 20:58, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

  See WP:DEATHS. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 22:23, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

  Interesting that you link to something that your own vote above does not adhere to. Zaathras (talk) 22:35, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

  The NYTimes: The assassination, which Israel said hit the Iranian-backed militia’s underground headquarters, was a stunning escalation of Israel’s campaign against Hezbollah in a conflict that has gone on for nearly a year.The Guardian repeatedly calls it an assassination. BBC: Israel’s assassination of Hassan Nasrallah, the long-standing leader of Hezbollah, is a major escalation in its war with the Lebanese militant group.

  The claim that the majority of reliable sources appear to not use the A-word in their coverage, except to note that like-minded (to Nasrallah and his cause) individuals and groups may refers to it as that is completely made up. nableezy - 00:33, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Move to Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah. It's a better name considering we can now confirm the death of Secretary-General of Hezbollah Hassan Nasrallah. Also, it's a much more recognizable name opposed to 27 September 2024 Beirut attacks . TheFloridaMan (talk) 14:42, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Move to Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah - and the claim that is a minor POV is emphatically untrue. Basically every story I see about this calls it an assassination, NYT, The Guardian, Foreign Policy for example all call it an assassination. Claiming it is a minor point-of-view is something that requires substantiation, not just bald assertion. nableezy - 15:24, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Move to Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah, this is why this airstrike was worth an article in the beginning, and after the confirmation that would be the most precise way to describe the event. OdNahlawi (talk) 15:47, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Move to Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah, per what was said above and the example of Assassination of Ismail Haniyeh. — Sundostund mppria ^{(talk / contribs)} 17:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose as proposed, neutral on Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah, as the attack was aimed at Hezbollah headquarters and Nasrallah. It's perfectly true that civilian infrastructure was also destroyed, but that was a necessary and undesirable side-effec resulting from Hezbollah making their headquarters under said civilian infrastructure. Animal lover |666| 22:43, 28 September 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose as proposed as it far less clear what the attack was about. As for "Assassination of Hassan Nasrallah" that's somewhat better than the proposed yet still inferior to the present name. As I understand it, this was an attack against the entire Hezbollah leadership. gidonb (talk) 01:26, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

POV

Yet again, the background is POV. It mentions Yemeni attacks on Israel, but says nothing about Israeli attacks on Gaza, where it has killed 40,000 people. We've been over this at Talk:September 2024 Lebanon strikes#More background issues.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 21:49, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Minor infobox note

Shouldn’t the little infobox blurb include that this was also a part of the September 2024 Lebanon strikes? The Wikimonger (talk) 00:18, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 28 September 2024

Nasrallah is dead. Namnaam (talk) 08:19, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: It's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please put what changes you want made in a "change X to Y" format.</MarkiPoli> <talk /><cont /> 09:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Why is this an article?

We still have very little information, the dust still hasn't settled. Either delete this article, rename it or merge it into another article. We still don't know if Nasrallah is dead or not apart from hearsay from the IDF. No evidence has yet been presented by either sides. Disregard this section, Nasrallah has been confirmed dead by Hezbollah themselves in a statement. TwistedAxe [contact] 09:46, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Operation named "New Order"

The assassination operation was named "New Order" (Hebrew: "סדר חדש")

Sources:

https://x.com/idfonline/status/1839945167354163378 (IDF Hebrew twitter account)

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/idf-says-operation-to-kill-nasrallah-was-code-named-new-order/ (Times of Israel news report) Redbeansoup (talk) 11:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Possible to mention the operation code name in the article? Redbeansoup (talk) 11:38, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, very good piece of information to add. You can add it yourself or add it and let someone else polish it. TwistedAxe [contact] 11:47, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Well unfortunately I'm not an extended confirmed user. But thanks. Redbeansoup (talk) 20:19, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Can someone transliterate? Bitspectator ⛩️ 11:54, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Done. Should be in the article now. TwistedAxe [contact] 12:00, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Hebrew speaker here. I fixed - it's "Seder Hadash". Seder סדר = order, and Hadash חדש = new Galamore (talk) 12:49, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

What happened on October 8?

Please see this discussion, and participate there, and then whatever is decided should be replicated here. Currently there is a WP:V violation in the article.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 12:15, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Are there still any violations in September_2024_Lebanon_strikes#Background? If not, the first part of the Background here should almost be the same. Bitspectator ⛩️ 12:56, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah this looks good. We should also remove the POV tag from that article's background if there are no further objections.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 13:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Vice regent, I made a bold edit and transferred the relevant text from that article here. Everyone, please let me know if there are issues with this. Bitspectator ⛩️ 13:36, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Your edit was partially reverted in a way I don't agree with. Hezbollah had explicitly cited the killing of women and children as a reason for continuing its attacks. If we can say Israel's reasons for killing Nasrallah is his attacks on Israel, why can't we say what are Hezbollah's reasons for attacking Israel? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 15:41, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, agreed. The reasoning that we could also talk about rape during Oct 7 doesn't follow because it isn't part of the stated justification for either party in this specific war. Not sure if I'm allowed to re-revert. I do appreciate trying to trim down Background though. Bitspectator ⛩️ 15:52, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

• PeleYoetz undid the changes and introduced WP:V errors in the article. This, in spite of constant discussion.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 20:57, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

  The source says "Hezbollah and Israel exchanged fire on Sunday, with Hezbollah firing missiles on Israeli positions in Shebaa Farms, which is claimed by Lebanon and was captured by Israel in the 1967 Six-Day War, in “solidarity” with the Palestinians." So we should also state "solidarity with Palestinians" as per the source.

  Also PeleYoetz said "bombing not mentioned in the cited sources", but that's false. The AJ source given says "More than 500 Palestinians, including women and children, have been killed in Israeli air raids on Gaza since Saturday, with thousands of others wounded."VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 21:17, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Lead pov

Very much like, we currently have NPOV violations in the lead. If we're going to put in Netanyahu's comment that Israel "yearns for peace", we should also put the Lebanese PM's comment that "Israeli aggression on Lebanon is a war of extermination"[5]. VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 12:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I disagree. This war is between Israel and Hezbollah. We can put what Hezbollah leading officials say on this Galamore (talk) 13:01, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Israel destroyed 6 apartment buildings in the middle of the Lebanese capital. I think their reaction carries as much WP:WEIGHT as the Israeli one.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 13:28, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Lebanon's PM is severly weakened due to the massive influence of Hezbollah in his country (largest than the national army, a state within a state, etc.), I'm not sure how weight should be given for such statements. As a country, Lebanon is not really a side in the conflict, at least at this point. Galamore (talk) 13:59, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Yet his views are widely quoted[6][7][8][9][10] and republished even in Israeli newspapers[11]. Clearly the world — and most importantly RS — are interested in his reactions.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 14:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Vice regent it appears the POV tag was removed by @Prodrummer619 without any significant changes to the flagged section. -> Link to diff <- Kcmastrpc (talk) 17:54, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Infobox civilian attack

Is there a more suitable infobox than "civilian attack"? —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 14:29, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@St.nerol. The similar Killing of Osama bin Laden uses "Infobox historical event", do you want to make the transition? Galamore (talk) 15:19, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I just found the Infobox military operation, which is perhaps even better. We have the same issue at 2024 Lebanon pager explosions. —St.Nerol (talk, contribs) 15:39, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I agree, military operation should be used. LuxembourgLover (talk) 19:32, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Given that the attack flattened 6 civilian apartment buildings, I'd say the infobox is not inappropriate.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 15:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Selective removal of casualties

Galamore selectively removed the casualties from the article. The article said:

Health Minister Firass Abiad said the vast majority of those treated in emergency rooms were in civilian clothing and their Hezbollah affiliation was unclear. Qassim Qassir, a Lebanese expert on Hezbollah, said the attacks mostly struck civilian workers, leaving its military wing largely unaffected. Reuters reported that, according to an unnamed Hezbollah official, 1,500 Hezbollah fighters were taken out of action due to injuries, with many blinded or having lost their hands.

Galamore removed the sentences about civilian casualties, both of which are attributed to named sources, but left the part about military casualties, attributed to an unnamed source. This looks like an WP:NPOV violation.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 15:07, 28 September 2024 (UTC) VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 15:07, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I explained my edits in detail in the edit summaries. Not all verifiable content should be included - it's a question of weight as I wrote in the summaries. Please be nicer and refer to content instead of editors, thank you. Galamore (talk) 15:38, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

But why are you selectively removing mention of civilian casualties only? Can you explain why it is UNDUE to mention civilian casualties of Israeli attacks, while it is DUE to mention military casualties? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 15:43, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Can you further explain why unnamed sources should have more WP:WEIGHT than named sources, such as the Health Minister of Lebanon? VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 15:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

But there is mention of civilians. The article now says: "injured at least 3,500, including civilians." All the rest (statistics, expert views, ways of identifiying people) was totally undue and should go to the explosions article, it is way too detailed for this article. Galamore (talk) 15:54, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I think that edit is okay. We don't need that much detail on the pager explosions. Bitspectator ⛩️ 16:14, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

@Bitspectator Would it also be then ok to remove the unnamed source for the military casualties too? AFAIK it is really only reported be Reuters.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 16:15, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I prefer to leave it in as it's relevant to the escalating tensions between Israel and Hezbollah (in describing the effect of an action of one party on another party) which is what the background is covering. Bitspectator ⛩️ 16:23, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I would agree with Bitspectator. Such amount of details on the pager explosions really belongs at 2024 Lebanon pager explosions § Casualties, not here. — Sundostund mppria ^{(talk / contribs)} 17:47, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

WP:V and NPOV violation in the background again

I added the WP:V violation tag as there appears to be consensus that the claim that Hezbollah attacked Israel on October 8 is unverifiable. See Talk:2024_Hezbollah_headquarters_strike#What_happened_on_October_8 and at Talk:2024_Lebanon_pager_explosions#WP:V_violation. The consensus version of the background is here, that Bitspectator and I agreed to and is based on discussion with Lewisguile and Selfstudier here and here. People should really not be adding unverifiable information into an article that is on the main page.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 21:06, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Request to change 5,000 to 2,000 reflecting consensus of more recent sources

• What I think should be changed (format using {{textdiff}}): Change the 3 instances of "5,000-pound" to "2,000-pound" (specifically in lead, infobox, and attack sections). Also should remove the associated "created in 2001" in the body as 1-ton bunker buster is older.

It is probably good idea to note in body that the exact munition is unconfirmed (see NYTimes reporting) but that's not part of this request just an option. If editor desires, can leave a reference to 5,000 pound bombs attributed to Elijah Magnier. But all the major media today are saying 2,000 (and if there are 80 bombs, probably a mix with some smaller but going further than claiming that 2,000 pound was used and ~80 bombs dropped is pure speculation).

• Why it should be changed: Almost ever major paper is now reporting the strike was likely with 2,000 pound bombs, including surpisingly one of the 2 citations used to say 5,000 pound bombs in the lead (https://apnews.com/article/lebanon-israel-hezbollah-airstrikes-suburb-617575d9c5d7c711bc02e7b81d2ba4ad). See also the latest report from NYTimes using released videos likely of the plane along with multiple expert opinions (https://www.nytimes.com/2024/09/28/world/middleeast/israel-nasrallah-bunker-buster-bombs.html?smid=url-share), along with a consensus with AP news and every other source I've seen. The only place I'm seeing 5,000 pound is the Al Jazeera live blog only cited in the Wiki body, which attributes the statement to "Elijah Magnier, a military analyst". I could be missing another place but it's not presently in the article, and would contradict all major recent sources. If the statement is kept then it should definitely be POV to Magnier (and/or the Iranian FM) as it disagrees with the size quoted in most sources and also was a live-blog in-the-moment analysis (so no discredit to Magnier).

The refs below don't go with this, they seem to have been imported from some earlier section if someone wants to fix, sorry not sure how. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scienceturtle1 (talk • contribs) 03:57, 29 September 2024 (UTC)

Scienceturtle1 (talk) 22:20, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Flag salad "Reactions" section

As many of you know, most editors despise list-formatted "Reactions" sections, especially the flag icons. These sections should be converted into prose—not a bulleted (flagged) list. Sourcing should not be primary, such as tweets, and should have encyclopedic value. Abductive (reasoning) 00:08, 29 September 2024 (UTC)